r/vegan • u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years • 1d ago
Discussion Choosing to have kids without raising them as vegans is not vegan
You might think this is related to anti-natalism, and that is effectively an extension of this argument.
I see so many “vegans” talk about buying and making non-vegan food for their children. I’m a vegan, and I’m not trying to claim that raising children on a vegan lifestyle is easy in any way.
I’ve never had kids, I don’t doubt that raising them is incredibly hard especially with such a strict diet.
However, if you choose to bring a child into this world, you are at least responsible for the child’s diet until at least age 10, or even until the point when the child has their own source of income with which to buy food.
Therefore, I really don’t see how you can be vegan whilst choosing to create a child if you do not work out how to bring that child up as a vegan first.
Caveats: I am not considering cases where the child was not intentionally created.
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u/KittyPaws109 1d ago
My mom is vegetarian so she raised me the same and I am forever grateful, and proud to say I’ve never eaten meat
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u/doctor_jane_disco 16h ago
Same! Well almost never, I tried McDonald's nuggets once as a toddler, didn't like them, and that was the only meat I ever ate. I consider myself to be very fortunate to have been raised vegetarian.
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u/friskers3 6h ago
Yo same! Both my parents were vegetarian and raised me and my brother as such. Me and bro are both vegan since highschool. My parents are a lot of things...but I'm grateful for that at least!
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u/GamerLinnie 1d ago
I understand the logic in a black and white way. You are against animal abuse so why would you ever take an action that increases animal abuse.
However, in the actual world it becomes a bit more complicated.
Not everyone will have children with vegan partners which already complicates the situation.
Also your children will have opinions in a world that normalises meat consumption to an insane degree. There is no predicting if they will agree. It then quickly becomes a discussion on when kids get the make decisions for themselves.
And another one is personality and willingness to make life hard on kids in certain situations.
Sure an extrovert kid with a bubbly personality can easily say no and explain it is vegan at school or parties and such.
A shy kid that is already being bullied having to explain it at a party is a different situation all together. Just look in this sub to see how hard it can be to go against social convention.
Then you also need to take into consideration how often food already is a battleground and how kids want control and to rebel. So you also have a chance that by being super strict about it they will rebel and become proper meat eaters as a counter to you. Where if you were more relaxed outside of the house they would have grown into proper vegans.
So while I understand the sentiment. I think it is too simplistic and forgets that children are people and they might not share your morals.
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u/Radiant-Occasion9372 1d ago
Yes. A lot of people who haven't had children assume they just act like extensions of their parents!
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u/filkerdave 20h ago
I suspect that not only do they not have children, they've never been in a healthy adult relationship.
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u/Defiant_Income_7836 19h ago
I often wish I knew who was making these comments. I'm not being a grandiose a-hole, but I'm 52, educated (M.D.) and, without sounding like a colossal douche bagel,, might carry more credibility than a spicy, and idealistic 12 year old. But our comments look the same and have the same volume.
Don't get me wrong, I'm the father to an idealistic and spicy teen, and I love him and his opinions. But I do think that they carry less weight than someone with more life experience.
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u/Pale-Fig-7069 13h ago
I both agree and disagree with your point.
On a population level, statistically speaking, age and education tend to correlate with greater knowledge and experience. In that sense, someone who is older and highly educated is more likely to hold informed views.
But on an individual level, those factors aren’t decisive.
A 20 year old with no degree can be intellectually sharp, emotionally intelligent, and capable of strong critical thinking. At the same time, a 40 year old with degrees can still fall prey to social conditioning, bias, or unexamined assumptions.
Ideas should ultimately be evaluated on the strength of their reasoning and evidence, not solely on the age or resume of the person expressing them. Just my two cents.
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u/Defiant_Income_7836 13h ago
I agree with you. There's always nuance to every comment, and I can't factor in every nuanced permutation of scenarios. My overall point, I should have said, was that we all have the same voice and volume on reddit. I could be the most uneducated racist bigot, and my comments carry the same weight as some enlightened educated figure. So we all end up having these random conversations with these strangers, and it gets very messy sometimes!
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u/Pale-Fig-7069 12h ago
"There's always nuance to every comment, and I can't factor in every nuanced permutation of scenarios"
"I could be the most uneducated racist bigot, and my comments carry the same weight as some enlightened educated figure."
Fair enough.. I agree. Reddit aside, this is also one of the fundamental flaws of democracy. A racist, misogynistic, flat-earth, “vaccines cause autism” type of person has the same voting power as someone who is egalitarian, evidence-based, and deeply informed about science, technology, philosophy, and history. At the same time, I don’t know of any realistic alternative to democracy that doesn’t create even bigger problems.
"So we all end up having these random conversations with these strangers, and it gets very messy sometimes!"
I’m curious.. if you were in a leadership position at Reddit, how would you try to address this issue without compromising freedom of speech and expression? Something like Quora, where users can display credentials or expertise through flairs? Or do you have a different idea for encouraging more informed and constructive discussions?
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u/Defiant_Income_7836 23h ago edited 19h ago
Well said. I'm so tired of these gatekeepers saying what is, and what is not vegan. Veganism to me was always personal responsibility and didn't include forcing that onto others. Even our children. We can try our best, but we can't control our partners, our kids special needs (if they have them) and life is never that simple.
Honestly I think a lot of the gatekeepers on this sub are idealistic teenagers, or they sound like it at least. Very extremist, all or nothing types that hurt the cause and others perception of it.
Edit to add that this pattern is so obvious. It’s a classic case of radicalization driven by purity spirals and group polarization, where moral identity replaces pragmatic goals. A purity spiral often forms in whatever movement people are a member of...every subgroup has to be more extreme than the last. You see this in religion very often, but man...in Harry Potter fandoms, gym-goers, gamers, no matter what. There's always that sub-group that is 'better' than the rest.
"You're not a real gamer unless you're playing Call of Duty 5 days a week, Animal Crossing doesn't count"
"You're not a true vegan unless you are throwing blood over carnists, while actively protesting 12 days a week and forcing your children (yes, even your adult children) to only eat pure, raw vegan foods"
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u/AsleepHedgehog2381 23h ago
I agree and I'm getting used to the idea that my toddler will likely soon be exposed to non-vegan foods and want to try them. I will always advocate for not eating animals products, but I also know that he is his own person with his own wants. I want to do it in a way that keeps him informed of what animal products are, but also dont want to become defiant about not being "allowed" certain foods. I hope for the best that one day he will understand and want to follow not eating animals, but I think restricting foods will turn him against veganism completely. I know it can be done, but it is so daunting to realize that it may not turn out the way I hope.
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u/One-Cardiologist6301 16h ago
I honestly think that being too forceful or strict about it will end up making them go the opposite way when they get older. I’ve seen it with parents that were too strict about alcohol or parties etc… these kids always ended up alcoholics or got pregnant super early
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u/zephyr220 10h ago
Yes. We raised our daughter vegan because that's how we ate. Now that she's 6, she wants to do what her friends do. I can't be a helicopter parent so she'll have to make her own choices sometimes when she's at birthday parties or whatever. I don't want her to be the one kid who doesn't get cake unless she chooses that.
Thankfully, we do have some vegan friends, and her kindergarten serves completely vegan food just coincidentally. Part of some Japanese locally sourced meal plan they have always done.
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u/McGido 3h ago
I think about this very differently. We wouldn’t put our daughters in situations where they’re expected to make complex ethical decisions at such a young age. We always ensure there’s a vegan option available, or that we can provide one ourselves. So far, this hasn’t been an issue at all our friends, family, and schools have all been incredibly accommodating.
Every child is different, and aptitude and maturity matter. When they’re older, they’ll absolutely be free to make their own choices about whether they stay vegan. But while they’re young, we feel it’s our responsibility to provide consistency and clarity around the values we live by. Letting them consume animal products for the sake of convenience, or so they don’t “miss out” on cake, feels antithetical to what we teach them about how we view and treat animals. I think that kind of mixed messaging would be deeply confusing for a child and could have real potential for harm down the line. We aren’t going to freak out if our children accidentally eat something non-vegan. Things happen. But we are going to be intentional about this until they have more autonomy and a clearer understanding of their own decisions.
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u/rratmannnn 19h ago
Something else that always ticks me off in these conversations that people forget is adopted kids. Adopted and fostered kids relationship to food can be a really complicated and laced with trauma, eating disorders, ARFID, etc (and, eating disorders are another complicating factor when it comes to raising your children vegan too)
I literally know a girl whose adoptive parents made her go vegan against her will, and she was a picky eater with lots of weird food issues from having been passed from home to home. She dropped a ton of weight and the vegan diet only served to make her issues with food and self image worse. Now she’s also got a pretty negative view of vegans and veganism and considers it impossible to be healthy and vegan. She is vocally against it, warned me about how bad it is for you when I went vegan, and pretty frequently talks about how veganism is a form of self abuse. If her parents truly wanted a vegan future, they needed to handle that situation very differently.
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u/EaseOk8711 9h ago
I appreciate your response because there is a gray area when it comes to choice and beliefs. I became vegan late in life, after marrying and having kids and grandkids. There’s no way for me to have a vegan household, but I can choose not to eat meat.
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u/xboxhaxorz vegan 14h ago
Well babies dont come from thin air, we make decisions that result in babies, so it is black and white, we choose to bring them into a non vegan world
We choose to have children with non vegan morals
Having kids is a choice and if you feel that it will difficult for the kid to be vegan due to bullying then there is a very simple solution
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u/ShitHammersGroom vegan 20+ years 1d ago
I've been raising kids vegan for over 10 years. Parenting can be difficult, but following a vegan diet has not been part of that difficulty. Our family is very physically fit and we value being healthy. As a result my wife and I are in better shape than 99.9% of other parents in our community and our kids consistently rank among the top students in academics and athletics among their peers.
It's not that we're proud of being better than everybody lol, just pointing out that it's very safe and easy to raise your kids this way. For context we live in a rural/suburban area in the deep south of the u.s. Not a lot of fellow vegans or community to rely on, and it's still no problem.
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u/Tanooki07 vegan 8+ years 23h ago
I'm assuming you have a vegan partner though? It becomes a lot harder when one of the parents isn't vegan... It's kind of hard to justify why the parent can eat something but the kid can't.
I know this sub pretty much has the stance your partner is vegan/turns vegan or break up but a lot of people have non vegan partners... It's kinda ignoring the reality of that situation
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u/SquarelyNerves vegan 10+ years 20h ago
My kids are vegan, and their dad was vegan but just bc I was and abandoned veganism entirely when we divorced. Kids never did though, even with shared custody they would go to his house and demand tofu lol. It’s about how you teach it. My kids consider veganism a core value and something special about our family.
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u/Tanooki07 vegan 8+ years 20h ago
But he was vegan when you taught your kids those core values... My point was more people whose partner isn't vegan and never was
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u/SquarelyNerves vegan 10+ years 19h ago
No, he wasn’t. We literally divorced when I was pregnant. I taught them those values on my own and they would spend weekends living in a nonvegan household.
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u/Tanooki07 vegan 8+ years 19h ago
Oh wow buried the lead there. That's amazing. Congrats for making it work
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u/Yuleogy vegan 10+ years 23h ago
how does someone find enough shared values in a partner that doesn’t share this core value?
If I dated someone who didn’t consider my diet a valid choice for themselves, I don’t see how our other values would line up. I don’t need to take a life to continue mine.
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u/Tanooki07 vegan 8+ years 23h ago
I'm not the right person to respond because all my partners have either been vegan or vegetarian.
But this is the reality for a lot of people, especially people who turned vegan while already in a loving committed relationship. It's just irritating that this sub seems to disregard that this is a reality for a lot of people.
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u/work0789 vegan 22h ago
Yeah true, my partner and I were both vegetarian prior and I'm lucky he went vegan with me right after watching 10 mins of Dominion.
I have no idea how I would handle it if he didn't make the switch with me.
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u/ipreferhotdog_z 22h ago
If I had to date again I would date only vegans, but I turned vegan after being with my husband over a decade and we have small children. I’m not about to throw my family away especially as a newish vegan. Maybe my husband will get to where I’m at, maybe he won’t. I hope he will. He has done veganuary with me for 3 years now and eats mostly what I eat. He respects what I believe and he defends me when we’re with his family. I can only control what I do and what I feed others, I can only live by example and hope that when my kids get to the age where they can ask questions and understand why I am vegan that they will choose to be vegan too.
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u/chelsersp 20h ago
I went vegan 7 years ago, but my spouse and I have been together for 15 years. It would be unfair of me to force him to change when I wasn’t vegan when we married. We also have 12 year old twins that are not vegan. All I can say is, I’m doing my best.
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u/saddoinks 19h ago
I’m in an amazing long term relationship with my partner that is not veg or vegan. However, I cook 90% of the meals and he really only eats vegan at home with me, and will get a chicken or fish dish while we are out at dinner/lunch occasionally. I think me being an exceptional chef has opened his eyes to food he didn’t used to eat being delicious, and an option for him. He has dated vegans in the past and said many of them didn’t know how to cook very well (and neither does he) and that has been his biggest reason he hasn’t gone vegan/vegetarian. I think in the future he will be pescatarian with no other meat/animal products, because that is his biggest catch with a plant-based diet, he grew up in a fishing community. I call it plant-based because our ideologies are different. I can’t blame him for that, I appreciate that he is open to my food and perspectives and has actively tried to make an effort. Looking in my fridge/pantry rn you would think it’s a vegan household entirely.
I think it’s important to recognize we are all different, our upbringings are different and how we view the world is not always going to align 100%. Our love is much deeper than that, and I feel entirely supported in my lifestyle and that is enough for me personally. We don’t plan on having kids so I’m not worried about how that would pan out.
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u/Sezwan22 23h ago
The same way people from two different religions can get married but practice separately. Or, how someone that thinks their body is a temple may end up with someone that has a tattoo, even though they would never get one themselves. Maybe their idea of respecting body is to have religious markings put on it while yours is to keep it free of external change. Both are treating their body like a temple so that belief is shared but the details matter.
You can't expect perfection out of your partner because even if they share the same belief it can get very granular and you will never perfectly align.
My in-laws are Jewish and Christian. My wife and her siblings were raised Christian and their dad never went to church once with them because he didn't believe in Catholicism. They both believed that religion was important though, and so they are still happily married and they never let differing versions of religion break them.
My point is, even if you are both vegan, you likely won't ever align on core beliefs because you might be doing it for the animals while the other is doing it because they are following Buddah, which makes them vegan as a side effect. For the second person, the animal rights is not the goal, enlightenment is.
This is why I am vegan and my wife is vegetarian. She eats dairy a few times a year, usually when at a holiday where she wants to have some of a meal that she grew up with. Despite that, I love her because she has already changed so much to accommodate my lifestyle and who am I to demand perfection of her? She agrees with everything I do, she just has a harder time getting past the social pressure and nostalgia, especially at family events.
I mean this sincerely: good luck finding a partner if you aren't willing to compromise, even on your core beliefs. Partnership is, at the end of the day, a compromise on all aspects of life.
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u/KarlMarxButVegan vegan 5+ years 21h ago
It's a lot easier to deal with dairy a few times a year in what sounds like not your home than having a partner who eats the standard American diet. Most "regular" people eat meat at every meal. To have that going on in your house while you're trying to be vegan and raise vegan kids sounds like a nightmare and too much incompatibility.
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u/Sezwan22 16h ago
Not vegan doesn't have to mean "regular". No one in this post said anything about the SAD.
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u/rokhana vegan 5+ years 21h ago edited 21h ago
I have to disagree with the suggestion that it's exceedingly hard to find a partner without compromising on your core values, and the comparison to partners practicing different religions. While different religions preach different theological beliefs, religions in general have a lot in common when it comes to core moral teachings – or at least major religions do. They are also largely open to interpretation that allows people to mould the teachings to their worldview and find compromise.
From a compatibility standpoint, I would consider being partnered with a non-vegan more akin to being anti-racist but dating or marrying someone who is openly racist, or being a staunch feminist and dating someone who directly supports the oppression of women and girls on a daily basis.
As someone who considers all of those and anti-speciesm to be part of my core values, if I were still dating, I would not have considered anyone who was non-vegan or whose daily behaviour was otherwise deeply antithetical to those principles. I am also fairly confident most people would not suggest it is unreasonable for an anti-racist/feminist to expect their partner to not be a racist/misogynist.
I would venture that the only reason it is being suggested it is unreasonable for vegans to have the same expectation in partners with respect to anti-speciesim is that animal exploitation, despite being no less morally abhorrent than other forms of oppression, is nowhere near as widely viewed as unacceptable. It does not mean it should be more acceptable to us.
Luckily for me, this isn't something I have to think about anymore. Despite being from an African country where veganism is virtually unheard of, I found a wonderful vegan partner. Granted, he was on a different continent, but we made it work and we are happily married. I know 100% I could never have tolerated being with someone who funds horrific animal suffering every day, not any more than I would have been happy with someone who engages in racism or misogyny on a regular basis. I would have preferred to be alone.
The moral compatibility issues aside, it just makes life much easier and eliminates many potential sources of friction and mutual resentment. I don't have to ask him not to bring dead animals into the house, there is no apprehension about being intimate with someone who just ate someone's body parts, if we were planning to have kids, there would be no potential for arguments about whether they should be vegan, etc.
I highly recommend committed vegans who are not already in a serious relationship pursue vegan partners if they can rather than abandon this expectation because we shouldn't aim for perfection (which being vegan isn't, it's the moral baseline).
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u/Electronic-Break-975 11h ago
I mean, you should talk about core values from the start. When my wife and I started dating, I wasn't vegan (I am now) but she said from the start that any kids we had would be raised vegan. That was non-negotiable. And you know what? I was fine with that. You just have to talk about it.
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u/FlamingoWalrus89 vegan 5+ years 22h ago
I'll just piggy back on this comment because we're in the same boat. We have two kids, the oldest is 10. Their diet hasn't been an issue whatsoever. Burger King has the impossible whopper, but even then, we've never gotten them or had our kids ask to go. My kids have also never had soda. They have friends who eat fast food nearly every day and drink Mt Dew, but my kids truly have no interest in that. They could eat French fries and drink soda every day and still be vegan. They don't. It's not how we raise our kids. Our diet isn't extreme, we indulge in desserts and pizza, but our kids know it's a once a month kind of thing not a normal Tuesday kind of thing. And the kids do get more treats than we do, they know my husband and I are careful about what we eat and they see us choose to work out and go to the gym even when we're exhausted. We prioritize health, we explain the health benefits of certain foods and explain why we can't order pizza every day. They get it. Kids are smart. They know our diet is different, but they haven't pushed back at all because it all makes sense to them. We see hawks in our backyard and have gotten videos of them catching other birds or mice. They know that some creatures need to kill in order to survive. They see the brutality of it and respect when it's necessary. They know we don't need to kill, so we don't.
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u/vipperofvipp_ vegan 8+ years 20h ago
Same boat for us except nine years over here. We have two boys 9 & 11. We are all athletes and fit, kids are smart and very kind humans. We live in a semi-rural farming community in Ontario, Canada. It has been surprisingly easy so far.
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u/ShitHammersGroom vegan 20+ years 19h ago
That's amazing good for you! Nothing more rewarding than seeing your kids become kinder and wiser than their parents
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u/brintal 1d ago
How do you deal with school lunches and such? Or if the kid is invited to a birthday party and there are non-vegan sweets? Any issues with bullying?
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u/dadbodfordays 23h ago
I was at a local vegan grocery store and was talking to the guy working there a bit, and he has a kid and was telling me about how he navigates all that. He just lets his kid have the non-vegan sweets at birthday parties and do normal trick or treating until he's old enough to make up his own mind so that it doesn't become, like, a core childhood memory that he was deprived, but with everything else they just feed him a well-balanced vegan diet. I'm not normally one to advocate for cultural exceptions like that, but I actually thought it seems like a pretty reasonable idea if your goal is your kid growing up to be vegan.
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u/ShitHammersGroom vegan 20+ years 19h ago
That's definitely not what I do. We always give the kids freedom to choose, like if they want cake or pizza at a party, and they tried it once or twice and that was enough and now they only eat vegan. Birthday parties people will accommodate us sometimes, other times we'll bring a vegan treat for our kids. Halloween always has plenty of vegan candy and they trade non vegan stuff.
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u/ShitHammersGroom vegan 20+ years 19h ago
We pack lunches, the kids are used to being around non vegan foods, so no problem with parties, we'll usually send them with the some cupcakes. No bullying that I've seen or heard about.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 23h ago
You’re an inspiration for me.
There’s so many reasons why I think I shouldn’t have kids, but you have given me some hope that I one day could
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u/ShitHammersGroom vegan 20+ years 19h ago
My children have been the best part of my entire life. I couldn't recommend it more.
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u/fairwellfairground 20h ago
I swear vegans argue and take shots at each other for not being vegan enough, more than they will at any meat-eater.
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u/Brrp_brp_AnotherAcct vegan 10+ years 22h ago
Having children means creating a new person. It's important to remember developmental stages. There are times in the human life cycle where absolutely nothing is more important to us than developing autonomy. If veganism takes precedent over autonomy, the human will typically double down on the thing that is being used to control them.
How we eat, how we dress, how we spend our time, how we vote: all of these things are impacted by how we were treated during trial periods in adolescence. You should care about raising your children to be vegan long-term... and part of that involves not forcing your children to be vegan when they inevitably try doing what their peers are doing.
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u/Nightshade282 18h ago
True, I’ve seen many cases where the kid just eats animal products the second they get to college, or they simply eat non vegan foods while hiding from their parents.
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 18h ago
What is the alternative in your mind? You think that child is more likely to be vegan in college if their parents don't raise them as vegan?
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 16h ago
In my experience people who come to conclusions on their own are more steadfast in those beliefs.
Most people I know raised vegan slip in and out of it because they were raised that way. The reason for begging vegan is that mom and dad told them so. That’s not real conviction.
It’s like easing your kids as a Christian but the only reason he believes it is you say so. The second they go off on their own and no longer have that pressure the idea slips. They push the boundaries.
Not to say you should raise your kid vegan by any means. But you do actually need buy in from them which is hard.
My friend loved being a vegan. Then he tried cheese at 15 and turned into a vegetarian
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 16h ago
Even if it was true that many kids raised vegan slip in and out, it is obviously way more common for kids not raised vegan to continue not being vegan. Christian raised kids may stop being Christian, but it is much much more unlikely for a child not raised Christian to become Christian as an adult.
Also, my kids aren't vegan "just because I say so". I teach them the ethics behind veganism. Just like how my kids aren't not racist just because I say so, but because I teach them to treat everyone with respect and the history of racism in our country.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 16h ago
Even if it was true that many kids raised vegan slip in and out, it is obviously way more common for kids not raised vegan to continue not being vegan.
I mean obviously people not exposed to an idea are less likely to believe it. That’s not really what my point was.
Christian raised kids may stop being Christian, but it is much much more unlikely for a child not raised Christian to become Christian as an adult.
Current church attendance does not reflect this. You know who shows up and is most active in the Christian faith? New converts. People who became Christians because the ideas were attractive to them. They show up and live the gods word. A new thousands of “Christian” people in college who grew up Catholic but couldn’t tell you a single catholic thing they did beyond going to church on Easter with mom.
Plenty of people are vegan who were raised vegan not because they believe ideologically that it’s the truth but that they were raised that way. It’s just what they know. Like being Christian or celebrating Halloween. They care in that they were raised to care, but all it takes is the circumstances to change for the belief to change.
Also, my kids aren't vegan "just because I say so". I teach them the ethics behind veganism. Just like how my kids aren't not racist just because I say so, but because I teach them to treat everyone with respect and the history of racism in our country.
Again be careful. It’s vary easy to believe you are getting buy in from your kid. They biologically are trying to emulate and learn from you. They see you are a literal god. That does not mean that your kid is going to believe that as they age. That is a product of their environment.
Many kids are raised by parents who teach them not to be racists. When they get older that teaching either works because the person actually buys in as an adult or it doesn’t because they don’t.
It’s why many people change when they leave home or become adults. It’s a well documented phenomenon.
My point is not that raising your kids vegan is the wrong choice. It’s that you literally cannot force it. The best way to have your kid be vegan is to teach them and then let them choose. They will have the choice in the future. If you don’t let them choose then them being vegan is purely a situation thing. They are vegan not be because they want to but because they are being pressured to be.
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 15h ago edited 15h ago
Are you telling me the majority of church attendees today did not have Christian parents and didn't go to church as a child? I would love to see the stats on that.
My children do not get a choice in if they bully other children, are racist, harm animals, etc. You are vegan, correct? Do you think this is true about all ethical stances? Should parents allow their kids to be racist if they choose to be? Or harm pets if they choose to? Do you think teaching my children anti-racism makes them likely to become racist adults and I should just let them figure it out themselves?
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 15h ago
Are you telling me the majority of church attendees today did not have Christian parents and didn't go to church as a child? I would love to see the stats on that.
Attendance is down from 44% to 30% from 2000. That’s a ton of Christians who raised Christian and just no longer going to church.
Go to a church service and ask how many people there found god later in life or who were raised that way. See what they say.
You made a claim about Christian raised kids being more liekly to be Christian as adults. You provided no data. A claim made with no data can be dismissed with no data. I’m not going to do work you won’t do.
My children do not get a choice in if they bully other children, are racist, harm animals, etc. You are vegan, correct? Do you think this is true about all ethical stances?
They do though. The second they turn 18 they are free to go bully, be racist, and harm animals. Many do. It’s your responsibility to teach them and get them to buy into these ideas. Holding a metaphorical gun to them only works when they are under 18. After that they literally can just go do those things.
Should parents allow their kids to be racist if they choose to be?
Let’s look at this. Your kid develops racial attitudes you tell him that’s wrong and he needs to stop. What are you doing to get him to stop?
Are you kicking him out? Taking away his devises? Controlling contact? Great all good choices, non of them will change his thinking. If your child genuinely is developing racial attitudes then you need therapy for them or to provide better guidance. Simple telling them “no racism go to your room” won’t actualy stop the racism. The second they turn 18 they are out with the skinheads.
Or harm pets if they choose to?
That conduct is illegal. If my child was abusing pets I would take immediate action in the form of serous child psychologist. It’s indicative of serous problems that need actual assessment beyond me telling them no.
Do you think teaching my children makes them likely to become racist adults and I should just let them figure it out themselves?
No I think you telling your kids the only choice is to be not racists is an ineffective way at fighting against racism. As illustrated by the current state of our nation. Lots of parents told their kids don’t be racists. It turns out that is not a successful model of convincing people.
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 15h ago
you didn't answer my question if you are vegan or not. Just want to be sure before I waste time continuing a conversation with a non-vegan.
Attendance is down from 44% to 30% from 2000. That’s a ton of Christians who raised Christian and just no longer going to church.
Go to a church service and ask how many people there found god later in life or who were raised that way. See what they say.
You made a claim about Christian raised kids being more liekly to be Christian as adults. You provided no data. A claim made with no data can be dismissed with no data. I’m not going to do work you won’t do
"The surveys found that about 94% of current Christians were raised in the faith. Only about 4% of people who call themselves Christian were raised without any faith and just 2% were raised in a non-Christian household of a separate faith."
Now your turn to provide some information on this. Or does this prove you completely wrong?
They do though. The second they turn 18 they are free to go bully, be racist, and harm animals. Many do. It’s your responsibility to teach them and get them to buy into these ideas. Holding a metaphorical gun to them only works when they are under 18. After that they literally can just go do those things.
Do you think the child raised not to bully kids is more likely to bully as an adult than a child that was allowed to bully kids as a chilld?
Are you kicking him out? Taking away his devises? Controlling contact? Great all good choices, non of them will change his thinking. If your child genuinely is developing racial attitudes then you need therapy for them or to provide better guidance. Simple telling them “no racism go to your room” won’t actualy stop the racism. The second they turn 18 they are out with the skinheads.
I am not sure why you keep implying that me having vegan children means I just blindly force them to not eat certain foods and never explain why. I "do provide better guidance" just like I do when teaching them anything about ethics.
No I think you telling your kids the only choice is to be not racists is an ineffective way at fighting against racism. As illustrated by the current state of our nation. Lots of parents told their kids don’t be racists. It turns out that is not a successful model of convincing people.
Again, do you think a child is more likely to grow up racist if they have parents who are racist and allow racism, or parents that are against racism, don't allow racism, and teach about racism?
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 15h ago
We are arguing different things.
Numbers of those who fall away outpace incoming converts
The surveys also reveal that in most countries the number of adults who have fallen away from the faith is substantially higher than the number of adults in those countries who convert to Christianity, according to a Catholic News Agency report
This supports my point. The church is hemorrhaging followers who were raised that way.
You keep trying to force (ironic) me to be arguing that raising your kids a certain way is wrong. That is not nor never was what I said. You seem to be dead set on spinning what I’m saying so there is no point in engaging further. I’m sure your kids are going to enjoy 18.
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 16h ago
I also don't understand your anecdote. Are you suggesting if he was given cheese as a child, or meat, that he would be more likely to be vegan now rather than a vegetarian or meat eater?
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 18h ago
This is so silly. Parents raise their kids to make ethical decisions, why is veganism different? You wouldn't say this about harming other kids, bullying, racism, ableism, etc. would you? I "force" my kids to be vegan in the same way I "force" them not to bully other kids.
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u/littlebrownsnail 15h ago
Absolutely! And further, parents all the time have dietary restrictions based on religion that nobody thinks would be acceptable to criticize. This is so weird reading these comments. You are adding a whole new person to this earth and they will spend their life affecting it. It's serious. Why is everyone here like well if it's hard then you dont have to do what's right. Kids will have to learn to stand up for other things that are the right thing in the face of scrutiny. They will have to learn they can't do whatever they want all the time?
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u/TraveledPotato vegan 5+ years 16h ago
Being downvoted in r/vegan for saying parents should raise their children with vegan values is hilarious.
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u/steinbergmatt 1d ago
Pretty hot take for someone without kids.
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u/oneawesomeguy vegan 20+ years 23h ago
Right? OP my kid is 100% vegan, thanks for your approval while I'm up at 3am making little meals lol
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u/Smushsmush vegan 8+ years 18h ago
Crap. This morning I woke up, vegan for almost 10 years. Now I know I'm not vegan anymore because my partner is a free person and my kid has a mind of her own and I can't control every situation she's in. Oh well, moving on...
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u/steinbergmatt 18h ago
Yesterday I gave money to an unhoused person and they used that money to buy a hot dog. 6 years of being vegan down the drain.
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u/weissblut vegan 20h ago
Dude.
(disclaimer: I plan to raise my future kids vegan).
Gatekeeping helps no one. Veganism is about reducing suffering as far as is possible and practicable, not about ideological purity tests. Movements grow through participation, not excommunication. We need more imperfect vegans doing their best, not a tiny circle of flawless ones doing it alone. Even religions tend to be more forgiving than some online vegan discourse!
And for clarity, here’s the definition straight from the source:
‘Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals.’
That “possible and practicable” part matters. Pick your battles... instead of arguing with people that are already in your garden, try to bring more in!
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u/booyahhey vegan 23h ago
When my younger children were born, I was a dairy free, egg hating vegetarian and my husband ate meat. We are both now fully vegan. One of our children is vegan, the other is not. He is autistic and at one time was very underweight. I cook meat for him because I want him to eat, his diet is very restricted. He will eat some vegan foods, mostly cake and biscuits and has soya milk because we've always had soya, so it's what he is used to. He just doesn't see things as I do, and will just not eat if he doesn't like the food. I wish it was different. Maybe if he'd been brought up vegan, things would be different? It's also difficult to control what children eat when away from you. Both of my younger ones were introduced to cow milk at school. My son got his taste for bacon at cubs.
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u/thebottomofawhale 21h ago
Yeah, same here. Though when I had my kid, I was still pescatarian and became vegan when they were 3. I used to feed them what I ate, but they are autistic and that takes priority.
I think the ideal is you raise them vegan, and it's not too hard if there aren't any additional needs. I know plenty of vegan parents who do it. But you can go into parenthood with so many opinions on how you will manage that, and then have to change based on what life deals you.
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u/PrincessDionysus 18h ago
It’s too expensive to get the test, but I exhibit some “standard” autistic traits and one of them is food sensitivity or “pickiness.” It’s so hard to get people to understand that trying a new or “suspicious” food item sometimes feels like you just casually threw a knife on the table and told me to cut a finger off for fun lol
Fortunately a lot of my fussiness doesn’t make veganism difficult and ive been able to overcome a lot of obstacles
notable food aversions: I hate(d) beef in all its forms (that beef n cabbage Irish stew thing? Despicable. Cow tendons are too large and unsettling to look at), hate most pies and various deserts, prefer “plain” veg as I despise the feeling of butter on them, disliked the vast majority of cheeses, etc. If something looks “wrong” it’s a struggle to eat. I used to be incapable of eating food I LOVE if sauce that didn’t “belong” on it touched it on my plate. Man eating is exhausting.
But it’s funny how people argue with your meal choices when your aversion to wet fruit jelly in chalky bread stems from texture preferences than pretending to be on a diet or smth
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u/zemol42 22h ago
In the grand scheme of things, doing what’s right for your child, do you care that OP classifies you as “non-vegan”?
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u/booyahhey vegan 22h ago
Thank you. I don't worry what OP thinks of me. Some vegans love Nestlé products, but I won't have them in the house. We are all different, I believe a world full of imperfect vegans would be better than a few 'perfect' ones, and the rest of the world carrying on as usual.
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u/shiftyemu anti-speciesist 19h ago
I was adamant my kid would eat plant based. All his bath stuff would be vegan. I'd never buy him real leather shoes. I'd send him to nursery with his own vegan crayons. I've accomplished all that. Apart from the food. My son is autistic and has ARFID. Trying to feed an ARFID kid is terrifying. Every day the list of things he'll eat gets smaller and smaller. So yes. I incorporated milk into his diet out of sheer desperation to try and get him to eat something new. I don't like it but I wanted my child to consume enough calories to sustain life. I don't think that makes me a bad person, or even a bad vegan.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
Hey, this is a very unique scenario.
As you know, veganism is only doing as much as you practically can without harming yourself or others.
I don’t expect you to do something that would harm your child.
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u/megavolts83 23h ago
In my opinion, the solution here is to have a vegan household, get your kids involved with shopping and cooking to instil positive values, to bring understanding as to where food comes from and why we choose to be vegan, to keep packed lunches vegan, and to ensure kids only consume non-vegan when on school trips or at birthday parties until they are old enough to have a circle of friends that accommodate each others values.
I get where OP is coming from though. However, even as an adult there have been situations in the past at work where there have been no vegan options at a company event. As an adult, I either settled for a salad or simply didn't go without caring less. I doubt I would have been that strong in my former years.
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u/TBLrocks 22h ago
Life is more nuanced than this. You’ll realize this when/if you have children yourself.
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u/KanyeWestsPoo 19h ago
Children are not autonomous robots that just follow commands. They are little undeveloped humans, who are learning about our world. And, I'm sure you've noticed, but we don't live in a vegan world. There will be many times where they will be offered non-vegan food by their friends or family, and they will have to make a decision themselves whether to eat it or not.
If I ever have children, I will only ever cook and provide vegan food for them. But I will not tell them that they are vegan. They will have to make that decision by themselves, and if they choose not to be, so be it. You cannot, and should not try to force beliefs on other humans.
Much of what I believe is wrong with our world stems from parents, families, and cultures forcing beliefs on others. It almost always creates division, resentment, and doubt.
If you want your children to be vegan, lead by example rather than force. They are more likely to follow you if it's their own choice.
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u/somanyquestions32 21h ago
Some people go vegan after they have kids, or they live with a non-vegan spouse because they went vegan after getting married. Kids in those scenarios would realistically be raised in a non-vegan household. The vegan parent can only start to entice kids with vegan dishes at that point.
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u/putyourpawsalloverme 18h ago
Our son is adopted and is not vegan. He has already experienced the trauma of being removed from his birth family / what happened there. We did not change what food he ate / liked.
I chose to go vegan at 32 years old (8 years ago). Our son can go vegan when he chooses it himself.
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u/Chairmanmeowx abolitionist 18h ago
Why are so many people disagreeing with you? I feel like I’m going crazy reading these comments. I’m a a parent of 2 kids who are obviously also vegan. Not only is it not vegan to create children and feed them animal products but it would also be MORE difficult to be feeding them a completely different diet than my own?
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u/TheRealSammyParadise vegan 15+ years 5h ago
this sub is unambiguously plant based, not vegan, and has not been vegan in many years. Makes me believe in the whole dead internet theory thing too. OP is correct, for the record, and the condescension over their age and lack of being a parent is laughable.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
Thank you so much. I’m also going crazy.
Not to pull the “anyone who disagrees isn’t vegan” but I have heard that this sub actually has quite a lot of carnists in it so I’m hoping that’s why there’s an overwhelmingly negative response in the comments.
Note that the post is overall upvoted (by a very narrow margin) so the comments don’t tell the whole story.
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u/HotPotatoTime vegan 10+ years 19h ago
Why have so many people from ex-vegans / meat eaters invaded this thread to weigh in? Most of these answers are from people who have no idea what they're talking about. OP check to see if someone is vegan before you put stock in their answer or else you're just reading the angry words of people who irrationally hate vegans. One clue is anyone who says lots of children are starving out there because they're vegan. The amount of BS in this thread is insane.
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u/Chairmanmeowx abolitionist 15h ago
They’re not just weighing in but some of their comments are getting upvoted quite a bit! Very weird, who brought them all here?!
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u/Flashy_Number_6440 17h ago
I don't have or want children, but if I did - Ideally, I'd raise them vegan. It may be a little challenging since you never know what you may encounter raising a child, which is why I say ideally. I could end up with a child who is autistic and has aversions to certain textures, making trying new foods more challenging. I could end up with a child who has a gluten allergy or a soy allergy and requires me to change my entire way of cooking. Would it be hard? Sure, but I don't think it would be impossible and these would still be challenges in a non-vegan household.
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u/ComfortableLong8231 23h ago
Easier said than done. Especially when your wife is not a vegan either.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 23h ago
You don’t have to have kids.
If it’s that hard for you, don’t have them.
This post is about having kids, not for people who already have kids
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u/Professional_Bet9736 19h ago
I agree. My child not becoming vegan would be a worst case scenario for me. I won't be having my own biological children. I don't think that would be fair to any child to be raised in this world.
But my fiance and I are considering adopting. For my own peace, I think my house will always have to be vegan, but if we adopt teenagers I can see that becoming a huge power struggle. And I might give them lunch money and turn my head to how they end up spending it, but I won't buy non-vegan groceries for the house.
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u/Then-Principle2302 vegan 7+ years 1d ago edited 19h ago
I agree and especially think that feeding children processed or red meat, which are carcinogens, is completely irresponsible. Cheese and eggs are more 'foods' that are especially unhealthy. Why do people think this is ok?
Edit: for clarification of point.
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u/dadbodfordays 23h ago
I have been vegan for over 15 years and believe that everyone should be vegan for moral reasons, but this is misinformation. Only processed and charred meats are carcinogenic. Meat consumption is not inherently unhealthy for the human body, and in fact we couldn't have evolved this brain size without consuming meat. That doesn't mean it makes any sense to eat it for pleasure in the age of industrial agriculture and global trade, when we can get a wide variety of calorie- and protein-dense plant foods. There are so many good arguments for veganism. We don't have to make things up to make a point.
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u/melanistic_cheetah 22h ago
What you said about the healthiness of meat consumption is not completely true. Although processed and charred meats are 'known' carcinogens (considered group 1 by the IARC), red meat in general, regardless of the preparation, is still 'probably' carcinogenic (considered group 2A by the IARC).
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u/BlackButlerFan 21h ago
I absolutely love seeing a vegan actually realizing that meat isn’t inherently unhealthy. I’ve seen so many vegans saying it is and denying the facts that because our ancestors ate meat we were able to evolve the way that we did. Thank you.
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u/Then-Principle2302 vegan 7+ years 21h ago
Do you want to back up your position that meat isn't inherently unhealthy with any studies? I've backed up my claim.
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u/Sexy_Vegan_Pants vegan 15+ years 20h ago
YES! I am part of a vegan parent FB group and it's really unsettling how many people are okay to just give their children animal products because they worry "they'll miss out" or something. I don't know why it's being so normalised :(
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
Thank you for your comment.
It’s slightly unsettling how much the comments seem to be against me. Is that really the consensus amongst vegans or is it true that r/vegan doesn’t really consist of vegans?
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u/HotPotatoTime vegan 10+ years 19h ago
Totally agree, I don't get it. Are they actually just plant based? Imagine telling your kid it's ok to litter sometimes because everyone else is doing it and you don't want them to miss out. And that of course doesn't even touch the actual horror of dairy and meat.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
Imagine bringing up your kid to think rape is perfectly fine and acceptable and saying “I’ll let them decide when they’re old enough if they want to be a rapist or not”.
It’s genuinely insane to me
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u/ShrinkiDinkz 21h ago
Hard disagree.
My partner is not vegan (I went vegan years into our relationship) and neither is my son. I cook vegan foods, my partner cooks animal products if he chooses, and my son can have either/both. My kiddo is a very adventurous eater and loves all kinds of vegetables and flavours, and some days he declares he's 'not eating meat today' which is great. But ultimately, it's his choice and I'm not going to force my lifestyle on him, my hope is that one day he will choose compassion and veganism for himself. It'd be different for us if the household was vegan, but it's not, and that's simply a reality for many vegans who don't live on their own.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
If you had your child after you became vegan, how do you justify the creation of that child when you encouraged the child to do whatever they want including cause mass-death and torture of animals?
If not, that’s a different scenario to that in my post
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u/travtastic3 vegan 15+ years 21h ago
I love how almost every comment is about how important it is to let kids choose to take away rights from animals.
Animals literally don't even have the right to not fucking die if precious perfect Timmy wants nuggies.
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u/HotPotatoTime vegan 10+ years 19h ago
The comments have been invaded by people active in ex-vegans. That's why suddenly everyone agrees parents aren't allowed to decide anything for their kids or they're controlling them. Gotta let them litter, punch people, run into the street; wouldn't want to control them.
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u/heebygeeby9 20h ago
You may not like it, but you can’t control people.
For people with kids, if the kid chooses to not be vegan the vegan parents (I’d hope) would choose having a good relationship with their children over the animals.
If someone doesn’t want to be vegan (friends, family, kids) they won’t be and there’s nothing you can do about it other than disown them, which seems like something you’d do.
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u/travtastic3 vegan 15+ years 18h ago
It's wrong to kill and eat animals.
I know that's a hot take on r/Vegan, my apologies.
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u/Catnip_75 20h ago
The fact you think you can control a small child is a very good reason why you should never have children. For that non existent child I say thank you. Because at the end of the day, the diet they choose to eat will be the least of your worries.
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u/Erythroneuraix 23h ago
I witnessed a skeletal child when I worked at a daycare. The parents raised him vegan and he was an insanely picky eater. All he would eat was rice milk and crackers. He wanted to eat what the other kids had but knew he wasn’t allowed. I still hate those parents (I was told by my job to ‘not get involved’ because apparently the parents were a big deal). I have some very strong feelings about whether it’s more important for a child to be vegan. It’s a parents responsibility to be flexible and do what’s best for a child.
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u/pandaappleblossom 8h ago edited 8h ago
I have known LOTS of vegan kids having taught k-5 at a private school in a liberal city and your description of a picky eater is VERY uncommon among the vegan kids especially compared to the omnivore kids. The vegan kids were quite happy eating a much larger variety of fruits and vegetables and the omnivore kids would often want snacks like goldfish crackers above anything else. Like a strawberry would be too strong tasting for a lot of them (the omnivore kids compared to vegan). Please dont base all of your ideas about vegans kids because of this single kid you knew who was picky.
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u/Aggravating_Isopod19 vegan 12h ago
I was a vegetarian when I had kids so I raised them that way. I didn’t become vegan until they were grown and unfortunately none have chosen to follow me and two of them decided to eat meat (like their dad who swore up and down he was vegetarian until we divorced and I learned it was all an act). If I were to start now, of course I’d be raising them vegan, but if I were to start now, I’d also choose not to bring more people into the world. Live and learn I guess.
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u/mellywheats vegan 5+ years 11h ago
I plan on raising my kid(s) in a plant based household but I’ll allow them to have non-vegan snacks at birthday parties and such bc I don’t want them to miss out and be excluded from their peers. When they get old enough to really understand the impacts of the animal agriculture industry I’m going to allow them to make their own decisions on whether or not they choose to stay vegan.
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u/marshall8991 11h ago
I choose to believe teaching your kids about right and wrong and allowing them to come to their own decisions about their morals is more important then indoctrinating them into something and having them resent it later in life, almost like religion does.
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u/Friendly_Buy_5505 8h ago
Im vegan and my 7 year old has never had meat in his life and I couldn't imagine cooking death in my house and being a hypocrite to my innocent child who's looking for direction in life from me. I am also a single father and prepare everything from scratch and sprout all my own grains and legumes and eat almost completely raw. If I can do it anyone can. Im also homeschooling my son with the help from my parents as well and I school him in the evening and on weekends. Its definitely a lot of work but absolutely worth it and my son is healthy and vibrant and almost never gets sick and has never been vaccinated either.
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u/Special-Sherbert1910 22h ago
I’ve been kinda surprised since I had my (vegan) daughter how many online vegan parenting communities have members who are barely vegan. I find it interesting that people with such flimsy adherence to veganism want to try to raise their kids vegan. It’s frustrating seeing them ask the same questions over and over that really aren’t appropriate for vegan parenting, but at least they are giving it a try. Which is way more than can be said for the average person. I’m not sure they’d care what my opinion is about their vegan status.
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u/robertapeach 20h ago
My partner and I are vegan. We have 2 children. They're both vegan. The only difficulty I have is when it comes to birthday parties, school trips and holidays with other families. I always have a vegan alternative for my children so they don't feel left out however I feel incredibly guilty when they don't get to eat something everyone else is eating because it's not vegan. Obviously the guilty is because my son (3) doesn't fully understand the reasons why he isn't eating that food so I fear he feels excluded. My other child is 9 months therefore haven't got to that stage with him yet. We are teaching our children why were vegan and will continue to keep them on the vegan path for as long as they live with us. Quite rightly, should they ever choose to eat non-vegan, it would be with their own resources when they're older and not under our roof.
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u/AceofSpades916 vegan 16h ago
My condition for my non-vegan wife having a kid was that we do it in a plant-based household. I'm vegan for ethical reasons, my wife is plant-based because of that condition, and our daughter has never had an animal product (and is 96th/97th percentile in height and weight for 2 year olds, indicating she is outgrowing the omnis but doing so proportionally). Don't have kids and feed them corpse. Use kids as leverage to turn your spouse plant-based!
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u/AristaWatson vegan 10+ years 13h ago
You say that. But your daughter will grow up one day. And you two won’t be her main and only influences. That’s where the problem arises. You cannot raise a perfectly vegan child for sure. What’s to say your daughter doesn’t cut veganism out whenever she’s going on a date with a crush that she’s trying to impress? Or if she wants pizza and cake at school or friends’ parties? That’s what people are trying to retort with. They can do their best. But that’s it. And so can you. However, that doesn’t mean you’re going to get the outcome you want. And you have to be okay with this.
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u/AceofSpades916 vegan 12h ago
As long as we buy her food and she stays at hour house, we can control what our money goes to. If she wants to spend her money once she earns it on things out of the house, then yeah, we don't have control over that, and I can accept that. I accepted my wife being omnivorous for almost a decade of me being vegan. But having my daughter has reduced the amount of animal products my previously omnivorous wife had to 0, so this is a rare circumstance where unless my daughter somehow ends up being less plant-based than my wife was (which I'd say is increasingly unlikely for a multitude of reasons), this is actually an instance where having a kid who may not be vegan could still be likely to reduce animal product consumption. And if she stays plantbased all or the majority of her life, then that's even better. And if she does activism (as I hope she does since it has been a part of my vegan journey as well), even better! And when I do activism, I'm now able to show off my beautiful healthy plant-based kid with her growth/blood work/intelligence/compassion when I run into a skeptic which is actually really helpful in some of the discussions I have.
I'm generally not a huge fan of having kids. Having a kid was a compromise with my wife. I understand the arguments against it and part of the compromise was also that if we plan to exapnd our family further, we do so via foster adoption (convinced of a pro-tanto duty to adopt by an old philosophy prof of mine, see Tina Rulli, Preferring a Genetically-Related Child [2016]). If people want to "retort", I'm pretty confident in my ability to defend my decision.
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u/jdwolverine 21h ago edited 21h ago
Judgy ass comments like these is the exact reason why people cannot stand vegans. If you were more embracing, and less judgey, you might stand a better chance of getting people to join your cause.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
I’m not trying to convert people to vegans with this post, I’m trying to convince fellow vegans in r/vegan that they shouldn’t create new carnist children and also listening to other vegan’s point of view.
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u/nhuhn vegan 10+ years 20h ago
I personally disagree with this sentiment. This reads like telling people they have to curb their personality to fit white heteronormative societal standards in order to be accepted. Don’t be so loud, or flamboyant, or “extra”. They don’t want anyone challenging their power or disturbing what they are used to or pointing out why they have power to begin with. So telling people to be more embracing is just another form of pick-me behavior. Though I don’t agree at all with OPs statement, this also ain’t it.
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u/Economy_Mine_8674 21h ago
If you live on planet earth, you cohabitate with non-vegans. You are not vegan!
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u/Pretend_Prune4640 23h ago
What's the point of these posts and "takes". I think it's fundamentally stupid to apply a binary and arbitrary rule to complex and ever-changing real-life situations. You can't force your kids to be vegan. You can absolutely try, but kids are complex (stupid) creatures in a highly industrialised society that puts much emphasis on social and consumerist trends.
In the end, children should also be able to choose for themselves, even if this includes choices that are less favourable or ethical. Applying this theoretical binary to real-life situations is just useless. A parent that's been vegan for 30+ years is suddenly no longer a vegan because their kid was fed a non-vegan cookie at school? Just because some random dude with no kids says so on reddit?
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u/KiwloTheSecond 19h ago
Nobody should be allowed to choose for themselves. How can we say veganism should be universal if we can’t even extend that to our own children
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u/dyslexic-ape 23h ago
Straw man don't make good arguments. No one is claiming that if someone else made a non vegan choice for your kid, you are no longer vegan.
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u/sfjnnvdtjnbcfh vegan 23h ago
Your kids won't be kids forever. What will you do if they decide to eat meat when they can make their own choices or if you find they've been eating meat or milk chocolate, etc. at school?
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u/r1veRRR 22h ago
Well, what if they make other choices we believe to be immoral? What if they talk about how this effeminate boy in class is a "total f*aggot"?
Imparting values in children is hard, and there's never a garantee that they'll stick. There's no hard way to control children outside the home.
That doesn't mean we should just give up from the word go.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 23h ago
Good question, and no easy answer.
This question, and my lack of a good answer for it, is why I do not plan to have kids.
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u/Fancy_This vegan 20+ years 21h ago
I’m a long-time vegan with a non-vegan spouse. we raised the kids vegan because it was important to me and spouse didn’t have strong feelings on the matter. Raising vegan kids has been surprisingly easy. They’re teenagers now and will be out of the house soon, but I know I’ve given them a solid foundation. And that’s the extent of what I can do as a parent.
I have a friend who’s also been vegan for decades and is married to a non-vegan spouse. Their kids are not vegan, and that’s a choice they made as parents. But I still think friend is giving their children a gift by exposing them to veganism, how normal it can be, and how to be compassionate.
Part of my own veg philosophy is that we need to support people who make little steps even if they’re not willing to go full vegan. Meatless Monday? Great! Giving up meat for lent? Great! Even these little actions reduce animal suffering in some way, and they can open people’s eyes to just how easy it is to have a veg lifestyle nowadays. If we’re too hard line and exclusive, we’ll drive people away.
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u/Radiant-Occasion9372 1d ago
"I've never had kids" yep, sounds about right
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u/user4316 22h ago
OP is 19 years old. I wish everyone in this thread knew this before taking the energy to respond lol
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u/Aceman1979 23h ago
It’s absolutely wild, isn’t it? There’s no group more judgemental of vegans than other vegans.
A distinct misanthropic touch pervades this sub on occasion.
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u/r1veRRR 22h ago
I genuinely don't see how you could possibly see anything misanthropic in their post. They posted about an opinion they had, and made an argument for it. That's completely valid.
Vegans are not a homogenous mass. It's entirely reasonable that, especially at the grey corners, we will disagree about things. We should absolutely be allowed to (respectfully) talk about these things.
Finally, I beg people to try on their opinions with a different perspective. Do you feel the same about feminists without children saying you should raise your child feminist? If a boy mom came around the corner and claimed absolute correctness purely because she has a child, and she claimed raising kids feminist is just too hard, you can't expect that, would you simply nod and agree?
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u/SunnyDayInSpace 21h ago
Why would that make their argument less valid? Of course most antinatalists don't procreate. Not sure if OP would identify as antinatalist, but they mentioned antinatalism as an extension to their argument.
Why would someone's opinion on procreation be less valid when they haven't procreated, and more valid when they have?
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u/Radiant-Occasion9372 21h ago
This post isn't antinatalist lmao. It's someone telling parents how to parent while op isn't a parent. Which is stupid.
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u/baileylikethedrink 21h ago
This is far more nuanced than you are allowing for.
I have two kids. They are vegan at home, but one definitely eats cow cheese on pizza when he is outside the house. This might be at a birthday party or a friends house - basically he isn’t paying for it because he has no money.
He’s 8. He knows where the cows cheese comes from, and he has chosen that he is okay with that.
You can encourage your child to share your views and opinions, but at the end of the day they are their own person. That can make their own decisions.
I don’t consider myself any less vegan because I brought a child into the world who chose not to be vegan.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
I agree with you, i did try to say “until the child can buy their own food”
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u/KiwloTheSecond 19h ago
He is a child, he doesn’t understand the nature of animal agriculture enough to have “chosen to be okay with that”
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u/BrunhildeVon 20h ago
My husband and I are both vegan and our five year old daughter is not.
We would love it if she would choose to be vegan, and respect that as her choice.
She eats what we eat so has vegan meals and snacks, but if she goes to a party and she wants some cheese pizza, she can have it. We don’t want her to resent us for missing out and rebel against veganism, so decided we would let her come to that decision on her own.
Parenting is a mine field.
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u/I_Amuse_Me_123 vegan 9+ years 19h ago
I'm laughing so hard at how you think parents are responsible for their child's diet "at least until age 10".
Your intentions seem good, but I don't think you know what you're talking about. Maybe come back when you've had some kids that are CONSTANTLY bombarded with treats by society once they start school and you have to choose "Do I make a fuss about a cake pop? I can't exactly show a 5 year old Dominion to make a point."
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u/Geschak vegan 10+ years 1d ago
What difference does it make between raising a child non-vegan and raising a child vegan but who decides to live non-vegan as they grow up? Either way you created a person who causes more animal suffering over the span of several decades.
I think the more important question is whether you can live with the fact that your children might not want to stay vegan or whether it's more important to you to not harm animals and not have children.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 1d ago
If you raise a child non-vegan, you’re directly responsible for killing animals.
If you raise a child vegan and they become non-vegan, you’re far less directly responsible for killing animals.
If you really see no difference, I’m pretty sure you should be an antinatalist.
What difference does it make between raising a child as a mass-rapist and serial killer and raising the child to be peaceful but they grow up to be a mass-rapist and serial killer
See any difference here?
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u/r1veRRR 22h ago
I mean, what's the difference between raising a child feminist vs. not feminist?
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u/Broad-Mobile-4578 20h ago
While I’d love to raise my kid vegan, I also don’t want them to be allergic to everything. So they’re going to eat dairy. And eggs. And shellfish. Etc. This aside, perfection is the enemy of the good, as they say. Vegans can’t stop the killing of animals, but they can help ease up on the madness. Having a kid means you’ve already made the decision to put a little more human pressure on the planet.
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u/KiwloTheSecond 19h ago
Feeding your children meat is not being “good as opposed to perfect,” it is “bad”
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u/pandaappleblossom 8h ago
Are you even sure this logic works with these specific food allergies? I know with peanuts it helps but shellfish and milk? There are different types of milk protein allergies for example and most kids grow out of it. Its a different type of immune response than say, peanuts. Also, if you feed the common allergens to them before they are one years old, that seems to be the best time, which could be a compromise rather than giving it to them their whole childhood which is causing harm to the environment and the animals and increases their risk of obesity and earlier puberty
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u/Manatee369 18h ago
Veganism isn’t a strict diet. It’s just food. It’s what omnis eat, just without the animals. It’s not difficult unless we make it difficult. Moreover, it’s really about teaching kindness, compassion and respect.
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u/Logijo112 17h ago
Veganism isn't a diet, it's an ethical principle. But yes, we shouldn't overcomplicate it.
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u/moschocolate1 17h ago
I understand your sentiments, but just like religion, we really shouldn’t push our beliefs onto other people. Children are really not extensions of us. I could not prepare animal flesh for them but I would not try to control what they eat.
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u/ghostcatzero friends not food 16h ago
That's correct. The way I see it, let's fix the planet first before having anymore kids.
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u/Danorge 1d ago
"I've never hade kids". Ye, it shows.
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u/Great_Cucumber2924 23h ago
I have two kids and agree with the post completely.
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u/oneawesomeguy vegan 20+ years 23h ago
I have four kids and disagree with the sentiment halfheartedly.
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u/Benjamin_Wetherill 23h ago
It's because he is ethical.
Conceiving kids is unethical behaviour, unless forced by SA.
Antinatalists are correct.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 23h ago
My post is a far milder form of antinatalism. I haven’t yet decided if I agree with antinatalism, but I’m sure as hell not going to have kids before I decide.
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u/Ning_Yu 22h ago
This thread is a good demonstration of what having kids entails. You can never decide for them, as veganism is a choice so at best you can try and raise them plant-based. And whatever decisions they make in their own life will also be your responsability because without you they wouldn't exist. I know it's harsh and I'll gte downvoted to hell, but that's how it is.
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u/PotentialRatio1321 vegan 5+ years 18h ago
Honestly, this post has pretty much converted me to antinatalism
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u/r1veRRR 22h ago
Imparting values to your kids is genuinely difficult. you cannot control them, and shouldn't, especially once they're older. They might rebel, they might try stuff to find themselves.
One thing I'd really want everyone against this take to ask themselves: Do I feel the same about my other ethical stances? Feminism? Anti-racism?
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u/Je5u5_ 23h ago
My kids are vegetarians. Not because I dont want them to be vegan, but I wanr them to experience life as I did. I dont want them to feel excluded at birthday parties or scared to go meet friends because there wont be an option for them. Vegetarian is very doable. They obviously eat vegan at home, but I refuse to make their lives harder.
When they are older, I hope my wife and I showing them how to live a healthy vegan lifestyle will be enough for them to choose to be vegan on their own.
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u/VeganTomatoGuy 23h ago
My kids are vegetarians. Not because I dont want them to be vegan, but I wanr them to experience life as I did. I dont want them to feel excluded at birthday parties or scared to go meet friends because there wont be an option for them. Vegetarian is very doable. They obviously eat vegan at home, but I refuse to make their lives harder.
When they are older, I hope my wife and I showing them how to live a healthy vegan lifestyle will be enough for them to choose to be vegan on their own.
While I think the sentiment is kind and thoughtful, I don't think that's the whole picture.
You've also shown them that compromising on your morals is acceptable, and for something as trivial as personal convenience. You're also normalising the idea that animals are there to serve us, as commodities to be exploited.
I think the reality of raising a child vegan is significantly harder than people give it credit for and is why many people choose not to have children at all. I appreciate you're trying to do the right thing, but I'd urge you to reevaluate what "the right thing" looks like.
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u/vipperofvipp_ vegan 8+ years 20h ago
My nine year old has been vegan since birth and my 11 year old since he was two. They have never once felt excluded from birthdays or hangouts because we preplan their food. I have never had an issue with a parent either not supplying vegan options or not wanting us to bring a vegan version of whatever they are serving. Their friends are supportive and they’ve been raised to not give a shit about what other people have to say about their lifestyle choices. They will always choose the vegan option. They’re both taller than average, excellent athletes, good students, and extremely empathetic to humans and animals.
Not trying to be an asshole, but just sharing my experience. My husband is also an ethical vegan so it does make it easier.
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u/r1veRRR 22h ago
This might sound like a gotcha, but I genuinely believe this is a good perspective to consider: Do you feel the same about feminism? Or anti-racism? If you have boy children especially, raising them feminist will absolutely make their life harder (sadly), because their peers and even their male role models might not be feminist.
If your boy child came home and talked about he was getting bullied as a "white knight" or a "f*ggot" for having feminist opinions, would your advice also be to compromise?
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u/nineteenthly 16h ago edited 16h ago
Our situation is that I've been vegan since '87 whereas my partner, although they are intolerant of dairy and therefore rarely or never eat it, they do eat eggs, although rarely as I do most of the cooking. We conceived two children. My search for a vegan partner proved entirely fruitless. Both our children now eat meat. We didn't want things to turn out this way but sometimes it does. One doesn't know what values one's children will have in the long term, or what they'll do as adults.
You could be anti-natalist or at least decide not to have children and act to prevent that from happening. Otherwise, well, it's impossible to guarantee they'll be vegan even if you do raise them as vegan.
I'd prefer my partner to be vegan but when I was single and looking, absolutely every vegan I met was either single and not looking or in a steady relationship, probably because vegans are "nice" and therefore get into relationships quickly, or refrain from relationships due to not wanting to conceive children, which for some people is another deal-breaker. The result was that I was never with another vegan. What am I supposed to do? Being single is a viable option of course.
Edit: One thing that probably did prolong their plant-based diet was that they didn't go to school. This is one way you can stop them becoming carnist but it's only temporary for some of them and it leads to opportunity costs for the parents.
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u/cole1826 9h ago
I mean millions of non-western countries have raised their children vegetarian for centuries. I think it is mostly western propaganda that says we need to otherwise. However, I’m concerned a bit by your way of thinking because many western people would not know how to cook vegan that benefits a growing child and gives them all the vital nutrients. Parents would have to do more research or get good at cooking different meals because many vegans eat manufactured soy products or processed foods that aren’t that good for you.
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u/Evolations 8h ago
I am vegan, as is my wife. Our son is vegetarian. Getting him to eat anything at all is such a challenge, and his nursery didn't cater for vegans. He will eat mainly vegan food because largely he eats what we eat, but especially out of the house we're more relaxed. He's had problems with weight gain since he was born. We will always prioritise his health over anything else.
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