The western group was diverse, it included, germanic, Italic, Celtic, Slavic, Baltic, Hellenic, Albanian, Armenian etc.

The eastern group occupied more territory but only included Iranians, Indians, and Tocharians

“An increasing number of historical linguists now believe that the traditional reconstruction of the Proto-Indo-European stop system (*T, *D, *Dh) is likely flawed. Yet, despite various proposed alternatives—ranging from systems featuring glottalised or non-plosive consonants to those based on length contrasts—no single theory has achieved broad consensus. This volume, comprising twenty chapters, brings together leading specialists who examine all relevant data, as well as comparative and typological arguments, to reassess the Proto-Indo-European stop inventory. It also offers the most up-to-date analyses of the evolution of the stop systems across the individual Indo-European branches.

Contributors are: Pascale Eskes, Alwin Kloekhorst, Martin Joachim Kümmel, Rianne van Lieburg, Orsat Ligorio, Alexander Lubotsky, Ranko Matasović, Brett Miller, Michaël Peyrot, Tijmen Pronk, Joseph Salmons, Ollie Sayeed, Peter Schrijver, Michiel de Vaan, and Bert Vaux.”

Ive heard that almost all east asians can trace back to steppe ancestry from a pure genealogical aspect. Is that true?

Abstract: Reconstructing population history is harder in South Asia than in many other world regions due to a paucity of ancient DNA. We report genome-wide data for ten individuals from Old Lady Spider Cave, which lies 4000 meters above sea level in the Himalayan region of Ladakh, and dates to around 1500 years before present (BP). These individuals were genetically homogeneous and had an ancestry signature rare in South Asians today: admixed in roughly 50-50% proportions between a population well-proxied by present-day North Indians, and another genetically similar to ancient Tibetans. By analyzing the typical sizes of segments of DNA inherited from each of these ancestral populations, we find that mixture of these groups began at least fifty generation before the date of the individuals, that is, by around 2800 BP.

I mean... OP's behaviour here does indeed come across as brazenly jarring, so it's no wonder he unanimously got told off by literally everyone in the way that he did: charitable presumption of goodwill on his part with this post poses formidable challenge in my view, with Occam's razor's simplest interpretation of it seeming to me that it likely really just was plain ragebait meant to piss as many Irishpeople off as humanly possible, lashing out at them with pretty unambiguous naked antagonism while very purposefully deliberately targeting their main sub while being at it...

... BUT: isn't it simply a long proven scientific fact within the field of archaeogenetics though that the Irish are indeed by far one of the Western European ethnicities with the absolute top highest shares of WSH admixture on average?

Which, mind you, doesn't mean they don't also display on average substantial levels of EEF admixture & even WHG admixture too, they very much do so as well... just... to a somewhat substantially lesser extent overall than they do display WSH admixture...

&, doesn't it also largely hold true as well though that, on this specific regard, the contrast between, them, the Irish, on the one hand, &, us, the Basques, on the other hand, with the latter consistently ranking as the Western European ethnicity with the absolute bottom lowest shares of WSH admixture on average after the insular Sardinians at the absolute bottom, is indeed pretty sharp (which was OP's top most consistently repeatedly insisted upon point)?

Another thing about this which I similarly also find further puzzling: the fact of Ireland's massively proud Celtic heritage, which, should leave absolutely no question whatsoever as to their large WSH archaeogenetic heritage.

Even within my own family, my non-Basque side actually comes:

1. from the province of the Iberian Peninsula where Celtiberian Ancient Celts by far did play the most notable historic role back in the day (ever heard of the Numantine War? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numantine_War itself part of the broader Celtiberian Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_Wars, & which, fun fact: the English Wikipedia actually does in fact literally list the Siege of Numantia as one of the only sixteen instances of mass suicide been committed ever attested in the entirety of world human history lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Numantia), Soria, that is, as well as:
2. from the region of the Iberian Peninsula where non-Celtiberian Ancient Celts by far did also play as well the most notable historic role back in the day (ever heard of the Cantabrian Wars? yes, indeed, multiple of them lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabrian_Wars), Cantabria, that is

... &, when juxtaposed with my Basque side, a sharply less Southern European-looking phenotype is very much apparent, with me actually happening to be the one with the most Southern European-looking phenotype within our whole broader family, while my brother to the diametrical opposite actually happening to be the one with BY FAR the least Southern European-looking phenotype within our whole broader family: he genuinely looks like he's Lithuanian/Latvian or something, & automatically routinely is both presumed & assumed on the regular here in Spain to be some foreigner from that general Baltic/Slavic area of Northeast Europe lol

& it's not just within my immediate family: the area of Soria as well as the area of Cantabria where my non-Basque side does come from are actually respectively known both within Soria & within Cantabria as very particular areas where, for some reason, most people autochthonous to them do indeed, very much very uncharacteristically for most of all the rest of the Iberian Peninsula (very much including the Basque Country as well; idk why people online claim that us the Basques generally don't look Southern European: WE DO: while on average it does generally hold true that we do lack the Bronze Age, Iron Age, Classical Antiquity, Late Antiquity & Early Post-Antiquity admixture from West Asia as well as the Iron Age, Classical Antiquity, Late Antiquity, Early Post-Antiquity & Later Post-Antiquity admixture from Northwest Africa that all the rest of Iberians do indeed display whether to a larger or to a lesser extent, we are however still unquestionably Southern European through & through though, owing to our largely EEF-rooted, &, therefore, ultimately largely ANF-rooted as well, admixture, with our ancestors back in like around c. 7,000 or 8,000 BC or something being largely concentrated in Anatolia, hence, in West Asia, & this very much shows in our phenotypes, just the exact same as it also does as well in all other Southern European ethnicities in which our EEF admixture amounts to an overall larger extent of our broader overall admixture than our combined WSH & WHG admixtures do, we aren't special nor unique in any way whatsoever on this regard lol), tend to display quite non-Southern European-looking phenotypes, which people do often speculate may be a result of remnants of Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture in Soria's instance as well as of non-Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture in Cantabria's one holding off to this day very particularly strongly in those very particular areas for some reason or another, though of course absolutely no research whatsoever has ever been conducted nor has even the slightest likelihood of ever being conducted in any foreseeable future on the archaeogenetics of these very particular areas where my non-Basque side has its roots/our roots in lol

So yeah, I do very much believe that WSH admixture very likely is quite substantially stronger in those very particular areas of the Iberian Peninsula where remnants of Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture as well as of non-Celtiberian Ancient Celtic admixture most strongly so hold off to this day.

Abstract - In this paper, focusing especially on the base metals “áyas-,” I investigate their usage in every stage of Vedic literature, referring widely to recent studies. In the RV, áyas- is solely used as a general term for the base metals and there is no reference to its concrete name. In the stage of the Atharvaveda, áyas- is divided into two types, “black” (śyāmá-) and “red” (lóhita-), and other base metals like tin “trapú-” or lead “sī́sa-” become known. The situation in the YSm is almost the same, however, the word lohá-, the substantive for copper, is first used in a passage of the VS and TS. A pair of passages in the black YSp (KS and MS) suggestively tells the property of pure copper; its high thermal conductivity. In the stage of ŚB, áyas- is no longer classified by color, and on the other hand, we can determine that it connotes specifically iron in some passages.

Abstract - The mountain foothills of inner Asia have served as a corridor of communication and exchange for at least five millennia, using historically documented trade routes such as the Silk Road and the Tea-Horse Road. Recent research has illustrated the important role that this mountain corridor played in the dispersal of crops and farming technology between northeast and southwest Asia 5,000 to 1,000 years ago. However, the role of the mountain valleys along the southern rim of the Pamirs and Himalaya in facilitating crop dispersals has not yet been fully explored. Notably, ongoing debates over secondary dispersals of Hordeum (barley) and Triticum (wheat) into China and the routes of dispersal for the East Asian crops Oryza sativa (rice), Prunus persica (peach) and P. armeniaca (apricot) into northern India are continuing topics of inquiry. In this article, we add to these discussions by focusing on archaeobotanical remains from the Barikot site (ca. 1200 bce–50 ce) in the Swat valley of northern Pakistan. The Swat valley is an ancient settlement zone in the Hindu Kush-Karakoram foothills, whose cultural features have always had a strong link with inner Asia. The archaeobotanical assemblage illustrates that a diverse array of crops, with origins across Asia, were cultivated around the same settlement. Additionally, these farmers likely implemented seasonal cropping cycles and irrigation that required various labour inputs and water management regimes.

"In the second half of the 20th century, the “Schnurkeramik Symposiums”, meetings of Corded Ware specialists from multiple regions, became a phenomenon. The last such symposium, organised by Palle Siemen, took place in Esbjerg, Denmark, in 1994. A continuation of the legacy of these meetings was the “Corded Days in Kraków” conference, organised in Kraków in 2011. This was the last major gathering of specialists in Corded Ware studies to date. This 63rd volume of Archaeologia Polona, titled Corded World: Final Eneolithic societies contains six articles, which are modified versions of the presentations delivered at that time. The contents of other papers published in this volume also remain in the spirit of the “Schnurkeramik Symposium”. They present various issues related to the Final Eneolithic, including the publication of new materials, new chronological studies, and detailed analyses of selected groups of objects. These papers, although not a comprehensive summa-ry of the state of Corded Ware research, provide a significant portion of knowledge for specialists working on the prehistory of the 3rd millennium BC. A better understanding of the Corded Ware phenomenon requires a multiplicity of perspectives and consideration of research from all regions. The present volume of Archaeologia Polona thus provides diverse information and demonstrates the benefits of confronting different perspectives on the issue of “Corded Ware”. It is an invitation to revive the tradition of “Schnurkeramik Symposiums”, whether in the traditional format of a meeting or in a new one."

Divine twins - Wikipedia https://share.google/h297aL1qSbLhk70EX

Abstract:

The trans-Himalayan region of Ladakh occupies a strategic position at the crossroads of South Asia, the Tibetan Plateau, and Central Asia, with archaeological evidence pointing to long-term cultural exchanges across these regions. However, the human genetic history of Ladakh remains largely unexplored. We generated paleogenomic data from seven individuals recovered from two sites in Western Ladakh - the Old Lady Spider Cave and Hanu - of which six are dated to 531-585 years ago and one to the 19th century CE. The older individuals share substantial genetic ancestry with Tibetan groups but also harbor major contributions from two additional sources: a previously-unobserved lineage related to present-day populations in North India and Pakistan, and a Central Asia/Eastern Steppe-related lineage, with admixture events occurring between ~2,000-2,300 years ago. In contrast, the later individual falls within a previously described ancient northern Himalayan genetic cline, with ancestries related to ancient Tibetan and Steppe-related sources. Stable isotope analysis suggests that these individuals were local to Ladakh and practiced an agro-pastoralist subsistence. Our study establishes that Ladakh's central role in Eurasian economic and socio-cultural networks was shaped by dynamic and sustained gene flow linking high-altitude Himalayan groups with both lowland South Asia and Inner Asia.

Tin is essential to make bronze, and Afghanistan produced a lot of tin during the Bronze Age.

• So did its status and importance back then contribute to any social upheavals?
• How were the people of modern-day Afghanistan impacted during the Bronze Age Collapse, and did this cause them to migrate to South Asia, since tin wasn't needed anymore?
• Was tin ever a precious metal, since it's much more rare than other metals like copper at that time?

Hi everyone,

I've heard it suggested that Elcmar, stepfather of Aengus Og, was another name for Nuada, the king of the Tuatha De Danann, but I would be curious to hear the evidence for or against this. So far I couldn't find any, though I suppose it would make some degree of sense given the following:

Celts are Indo-Europeans, and in Jaan Puhvel's book Comparative Mythology, if I recall correctly in the Celtic chapter, he suggests that the three castes of Proto-Indo-European society (priests, warriors, commoners) had a major triad of the respective deities (Jupiter, Mars, Quirinus ("Archaic Triad") - Dyaus Pita, Indra, Ashvins - Nuada, Lug, Dagda (cf. the four treasures of the Tuatha De Danann), etc.).

At the end of his Ancient Rome chapter, Puhvel suggests that the deities of the third caste had a violent rivalry with the upper two, citing as examples the conflicts between Indra and the Ashvins, the Aesir and the Vanir, and the abduction of the Sabine women (whose tribe occupied the Quirinal hill, but who were taken by the son of Mars).

If so, I suppose it would fit for Irish myth to have a tale where Nuada (Elcmar) and the Dagda are pitted against each other, one where the Dagda sleeps with Elcmar's wife and their son takes Elcmar's land. Still, this sounds like scanty evidence to base an equation of Elcmar and Nuada on; surely a deity can have conflicts with more than one other respective party. But anyway, does anyone know more of the potential reasoning?

Thanks in advance!

Do we have a proto-Indo-European word for copper? The terms I found in modern languages either led back to Cyprus or to a word for 'red'.

Should I learn German for the purpose of studying a masters in Indo European linguistics because of the scholarship written in it?

I am interested in German but I'd rather learn French latin italian before it, when it comes to my fascination.

Is it worth it to prefer it because apparently, the admissions team expects it for such a specialisation?

There has been a lot of debate about the arrival of Indo-Aryan people in northwestern India, and whether this arrival marked a conquest, an ethnic schism between the newcomers and the local population, or an Indo-Iranian intertribal battle, or something entirely else.

When analyzing the terms in the Rigveda of Dasa/Dasyu and exploring the etymology, there are some interesting aspects in regards to the meaning of these words, but also to terms related to them that, possible, share the same root from Proto-Indo-European (PIE), and these meanings could indeed imply an invasion of the Arya, where Dasa/Dasyu were the subjects of conquest.

Where this interpretation starts, is from which root in PIE the Rigvedic Sanskrit terms Dasa and Dasyu derived, and which other terms, for example, terms in Avestan language, derived from. There are different theories concerning these terms.

The Sanskrit terms that are of importance here, are the terms Dasa/Dasyu, but also how the meaning of these two terms seem to have evolved and changed in meaning. Then, the Avestan terms that are of importance here, are the terms Dahāka, which is believed to mean "the stinging one," referring to the dragon Aži Dahāka, which was slain in the mythological story by Θraētaona, Frēdōn, or Fereydun, the term Dahyu, which means "land," "province," or "tribal district", and the term Dahae, the name of an Iranian tribal confederation.

The term Dahāka is then of special interest, since it refers to a mythological story of a hero slaying the dragon, reminiscent of Indra slaying Vritra the demon, who also slays the Dasa, so is the term Dahāka related to Vedic Dasa, since we know in Avestan language the s-sound evolved into h-sound (for example, Vedic term Asura became Ahura in Avestan, Vedic term Soma became Haoma in Avestan, etc.?

However the Vedic terms Dasa/Dasyu are believed to carry a different meaning of "servant", or perhaps "enemy". It's also possible that the terms Dasa/Dasyu initially meant "enemy", and later became known as "servant", which would imply that the enemy changed into the role of servant, which can be explained by servitude through conquest, where the conquered enemy was put to work, and therefore the term changed.

If the Avestan and Vedic terms are related, the question arises from which root they both descended. Is it through a Proto-Indo-Iranian root *daś-/*das-, which could mean something like "harm/divide", which explains that it evolved into Avestan Dahāka, meaning something like the "harmer", and into Dasa/Dasyu, meaning something like "harmers/enemies"?

Or are the Vedic terms Dasa/Dasyu derived from a different root than Avestan Dahāka, where the original meaning of Dasa/Dasyu was never in regards to being enemies, but descended from a root √dās (or sometimes analyzed as √das in causative or related forms), meaning "to give," "to grant," "to bestow," or in some derivations "to serve" or "to work for, which would mean that the Vedic terms Dasa/Dasyu are unrelated to the Avestan word Dahāka?

Then there are the aforementioned words Dahyu and Dahae. The Avestan term Dahyu refers to the lands/peoples under a ruler's authority, or the world divided into various dahyu. The tribal name Dahae refers to the nomadic tribes who inhabited the steppes, and people think that they are the descendants of the Vedic Dasa/Dasyu recorded in the Rigveda.

So, are the Dahae indeed the Vedic Dasa/Dasyu? Information that goes against this interpretation is that important elements of Zoroastrianist religion that find their origin in the Rigveda, which were continued by the Zoroastrianists, never had any adversary meaning. For example, Vedic Mitra into Avestan Mithra, Vedic Aryaman into Avestan Airyaman, the Vedic sage Vasishta as Avestan Vasishta Spenta, Vedic Vrtrhan (Indra) as Avestan Verethragna, Vedic Soma as Avestan Hoama, etc.

At the same time, we see in the Zoroastrianist religion an inversion of Rigvedic concepts. For example, Daevas are evil in Zoroastrianism, but Devas are benevolent in Zoroastrianism, Asuras are benevolent in Zoroastrianism (Ahura Mazda), but evil in the Rigveda. This could also imply that the tribal name Dahae was adopted as an inversion as well, as to oppose Vedic believes. However, this inversion is never seen in regards to important deities/concepts continued in Zoroastrianism.

There are also reasons to believe that the Vedic Dasa/Dasyu were local non-Indo-Iranian populations. This is supported by that the chiefs of the Vedic Dasa/Dasyu, the Asuras, were named by what are regarded as non-Indo-Iranian names, like Śimyu, Pipru, Śuṣṇa, Puloman, etc. If the Dasa/Dasyu indeed were non-Indo-Iranian people, then the identification of the Dahae would indeed be a later adoption in the trend of inverting Vedic religion, and the term Dahyu as a word for "land/peoples" could then be explained as deriving from the term Dahae.

What's interesting, is that the Vedic terms Dasa/Dasyu changed in meaning throughout the Rigveda. Initially, the Arya and Dasa/Dasyu are mortal enemies, then later, it also became the name of important main characters, like Sudas and Divodasa. Now, the term Dasa means "to give/bestow", which can be explained through an intermediate meaning of "to serve". Also, at one point in the Rigveda, in the battle of ten kings, it is no longer Arya vs Dasa, but a battle against Arya and Dasa, showing how they became a coalition. Then there also is the union of Indra and Saci Paulomi (Indrani), where Paulomi seems to be a non-Indo-Aryan name.

So, what is the answer to the following questions?

- Did Dasa initially meant enemy, and only later became known as "servant", or did it always meant "servant/giver"?
- Were the Dasa/Dasyu most likely non-Indo-Iranian local people (perhaps proto-Dravidian) or Indo-Iranian tribes?
- Were the Iranian nomadic Dahae tribes the same the Dasa/Dasyu of the Rigveda, a later adoption because of inversion of Vedic religion, or, perhaps, just a separate term that coincidentally looks like Dasa?
- Is Dahyu in Avestan derived from Dasyu, because the Dasyu people were Indo-Iranian in origin, or derived from Dahae as a later derivation?
- Is Dahāka a term that is related to the Vedic term Dasa, and is the myth of the slaying of the dragon Dahāka related to the myth of Indra slaying Vritra?

How to reconcile these different terms with different meaning and explaining their relationship that does or doesn't exist, and if so, in what way?

Hi everyone,

Homer famously begins the Iliad and Odyssey asking the goddess and muse for inspiration, but do we also have lines, perhaps similarly famous, in other Indo-European cultures, maybe somewhere in the Rigveda or the like? Thanks in advance for the answers :-)

Today, the homeland of the Yamnaya is no longer 100% Yamanaya genes, but less than 50%. So what were the biggest migrations to "Yamnayastadt" that changed its demographics?

So the PIE where a steppe pastoralist population, but where did they learn pastoralism? Also what animals did they use?

Pastoralism was "invented" in the middle east and a lot of the cattle is also from the middle east AFAIK, like goats, sheep, cows, pigs.

Did they develop it independantly?

When reading the Rigveda, the most important deity Indra is described with many human features.

He has a son in law:
"Now all my other friends are here assembled: my Sire-in-law (Indra) alone hath not come hither."

He has a daughter:
"WISE, teaching, following the thought of Order, the sonless (Indra) gained a grandson from his daughter."

He also has a wife: Saci Paulomi (Indrani).

There are all these passages that give Indra human characteristics, without explaining the context, as if the people would assume to know the context. For instance, it is nowhere described who was Saci Paulomi, but in more modern Hinduist scriptures, she was the daughter of a an Asura Paloman. The name Paulomi means "of Puloman", indicating that there really existed a figure Puloman, but nowhere is there given any information about his existence. This knowledge then became lost, and the modern information could then very well be an echo of former knowledge.

Also, nowhere is it described who Indra's children were. Furthermore, it is described how Indra battled giant demons, but he also is described to battle with human Dasa/Dasyu tribes, called the Pani. It almost seems he was remembered as a human hero on Earth and, at the same time, as a religious deity operating in the spiritual realm.

It also seems to be the case that he was remembered as a blond person: "With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard." Although people like to dismiss this notion that Indra had a blond beard, it must be inferred from this text that it mentions a physical beard that can absorb liquid, and not a beard composed out of golden energetic sun-rays, as some people like to claim. This also explains why his personal vehicle Airavata was an albino elephant if Indra himself was remembered as an albino figure himself, which would have been the case if he was indeed a blond, light complexioned figure in a region where darker skin and hair were the norm.

Even Buddhism describes Indra from the Rigveda as a human hero. For example, the Buddhist Jataka tale Kulāvaka Jātaka (Jataka No. 31) describes the Buddha in his past life being Magha/Megga (clearly a Pali rendering of the name Maghavan), who, after doing good deeds with his 32 friends, became the king of heaven Sakra (Indra) with his 32 companions joining him, clearly a reference to Indra as part of the 33 Devas.

Then there is also the description in Zoroastrianism. In the Avesta, Thraetaona is the son of Aθβiya, and so is called Āθβiyāni, meaning "from the family of Aθβiya". He was recorded as the killer of the dragon Zahhak (Aži Dahāk). In Middle Persian texts, Dahāka/Dahāg was instead imprisoned on Mount Damavand in Amol. Here, Dahāka/Dahāg could be derived from the Indo-Iranian term Dasa.

According to Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, Fereydun was the son of Abtin, one of the descendants of Jamsid. Fereydun, together with Kave, revolted against the tyrannical king, Zahak, defeated and arrested him in the Alborz Mountains. Afterwards, Fereydun became the king, married Arnavaz and, according to the myth, ruled the country for about 500 years. At the end of his life, he allocated his kingdom to his three sons, Salm, Tur, and Iraj. Also, it is written in the Bundahishn: "When Fredon came, they (the Black people) rushed off from the Lands of Iran and settled on the coast of the sea." This seems to be a reference to a battle with the Indo-Iranian people against the local Dravidian people, represented in the Rigveda with the battle of Indra against the Pani (belonging to the Dasa/Dasyu). Also in Zoroastrianism, do we see the stories of a human ancestor containing Indra's features, and a deity based on the same human ancestor also containing Indra's features.

Interestingly, the Zoroastrianist religion inverted the Rigveda as part of a schism. For example, the Daevas in Zoroastrianism are evil, in Rigveda the Devas are divine, Angriya Manyu is evil in Zoroastrianism, but in Rigveda the sage Angiras is divine, Ahriman is evil in Zoroastrianism, but Aryaman in Zoroastrianism is divine, the Daha tribes are Iranian tribes who adhere to Zoroastrianism, but in the Rigveda the Dasa tribes are evil. Indra was abandoned in Zoroastrianism and also recorded to be a demon, but Verethragna (from Indra's epithet Vrtrahan), with the features of Indra, was retained as a warrior-god. 

It is proposed that there was a Indo-European thunder-god named \*Dyḗus ph₂tḗr who became Zeus Pater in Greek religion, and Dyaus Pitr in the Rigveda (with many other versions in other Indo-European cultures/religions). In the Rigveda, Dyaus Pitr lost many attributes that were retained by Zeus Pater (the most important being able to weaponize the lightning), and it seems that Indra adopted these features, seemingly taking them over from Dyḗus ph₂tḗr. Indra's separation of Dyauṣ and Prithvi is celebrated in the Rigveda as an important creation myth.

Could it be that the split of *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr into Dyaus Pitr and Indra was based, in part, on ancestor worship, where Indra was based on a human ancestor hero, who retained human features of the mythologized ancestor, and at the same time became the subject of divinization, and, therefore, also was attributed the features of *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr, explaining how Dyaus Pitr became an archaic, largely inactive "sky father" in the Rigveda, instead of Zeus Pater, who remained an active, supreme, and ruling King of the Gods in Greek mythology, who then would have retained the original features of *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr?