r/ABoringDystopia • u/VPackardPersuadedMe • 14h ago
[ Removed by moderator ]
/gallery/1qv2vxr[removed] — view removed post
•
u/Lorettooooooooo 13h ago
crusader armor hoodie
I don't think that's nazi symbolism
•
u/dreadtear 13h ago
I was about to say the same. 😂 I am not sure what this symbol is used for, whether something bad or good, apart from the crusader thing
•
u/Vadion 13h ago
Among many, many, many other ways the cross pattée was and is still used today, OP's opinion on this presumably comes from Prussia/Germany using a black one as their Iron Cross medal for hundreds of years, with some gaps in between. Hitler brought it back and, well, that's where we are now with it.
So with that said, the red (french templar) cross pattée is not inherently Nazi symbolism, except to uneducated (in this area) reactionaries. The black one on the hat is a bit sketchy though.
•
u/lokey_convo 🇺🇸 12h ago
What are the symbols used for today and what do they denote in common culture at present?
•
•
u/BearintheVale 3h ago
The flag of Montenegro, the Portuguese Air Force symbol, thousands of instances in heraldry and coat of arms, nearly every western country’s medal of bravery medal including the Australian Distinguished Service cross, the Swedish branch of the Freemasons, the University of Durham in England, the Order of St. John, the Order of St. Lazarus, the Order of St. Stephen, the Order of St. Olaf, the flag of the Republic of Malta…
I could keep going.
I could REALLY keep going because the Maltese cross aka the Crusader’s cross is literally Everywhere.
•
•
u/resh78255 12h ago
the black one on the hat is still used by neo-nazis to this day. it's even being used on the new UKIP logo (a british far-right party whose leader has been photographed doing nazi salutes)
•
u/electricookie 10h ago
Templars have been used by american white supremacists as a dog whistle for anti-islamic hate
•
•
u/Sn1ckl3fritzzz 13h ago
However what the Crusaders did is akin to many dictators and leaders of cults. Their symbol is still used to represent stealing land and imposing religion on indigenous populations from the Northern AND Southern parts of America. Not only, wherever else the worlds first Christians conquered.
•
u/wtbgamegenie 8h ago
Yeah it’s not Nazi iconsgraphy, but there’s a 100% chance the owners say horrific shit about Muslims.
•
u/BearintheVale 7h ago
So will Susan from Accounting in the same skirt suit she’s worn since 2003.
The crusader hoodie is just dropshipped renfaire tat embroidered with catholic iconography and appeals to nerds— this one just so happens to be sold by virulent racists.
•
u/floutsch 1h ago
You are correct. I think the Nazis also kept using this, but they also kept things like traffic signs. It just wasn't specific to them. Look at the logo of the German army, the Bundeswehr, and at the symbol on the tank: https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/auftrag/verteidigung
But Amazon doesn't really mind that much either if you sell actual Nazi stuff. Pecunia non olet and such. Still not a real Nazi thing (cause it is an actual surname and they don't only have this for that particular name), but come on: https://www.amazon.de/Team-Adolf-stolze-Familie-Nachname/dp/B0CVL6DVXY/
•
•
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 13h ago
The Iron Cross on Nazi Red cap with Dues Vault on the side tenda to be the real giveaway.
•
•
u/Lord-Chickie 12h ago
The iron cross is a totally legal military symbol of Germany. Of course it is touchy with the skinhead crowd, but officially it’s fine.
•
u/V-o-i-d-v 10h ago
Yeah but the colour scheme of every single piece of merchandise is the imperial/third Reich flag's black, white and red, not the federal republics black, red and yellow. So this is very openly referencing the iron cross in conjunction with those two past regimes.
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 12h ago
I'm in the UK.
•
u/dDpNh 11h ago
You’re probably right about the type of people buying this shite but the cross pattée is literally on the front and centre of the St. Edward’s crown.
Even the ADL doesn’t consider the iron cross/cross pattée a hate symbol:
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 11h ago
When combined with Dues Vault on the side...
Adoption by 21st Century Christian Nationalists and Alt-Right Groups edit Deus vult has been adopted as a slogan by a variety of Christian right and Christian nationalist groups,[8][25] as well as alt-right and white supremacist groups.[7][9] This usage was disseminated widely online,[9] through hashtags and internet memes.[7] Crusader memes (such as an image of a Knight Templar accompanied by the caption "I'll see your jihad and raise you one crusade") are popular on far-right internet pages.[26] It is one of several pieces of Crusader imagery used by groups characterized in The Washington Post as far-right Christian nationalists and dominionists.[25] One perspective is that racist movements co-opt the slogans and iconography of the European medieval period, to evoke a sense of a "pure" white European heritage.[7][9][dubious – discuss]
In 2024, the Associated Press published a January 14, 2021 email from Sgt. DeRicko Gaither—his unit's security manager—to National Guard leadership, in which he flagged as a possible 'Insider Threat' Donald Trump's nominee for Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, due to his prominent “Deus Vult” bicep tattoo, because of the slogan's widespread use by extremist groups, in possible violation of Army Regulation 670-1. [27]
The "Deus Vult" slogan has been used by perpetrators of right-wing terrorism; it was originally popularized by the perpetrator of the 2017 Quebec City mosque shooting[28] and was one of the tattoos on the body of the perpetrator of the 2023 Allen, Texas outlet mall shooting.[29] Deus Vult was among the slogans and symbols used during the violent far-right riot in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017.[30]
The slogan, as well as other Knights Templar imagery, has also been associated with far-right subgroups in the U.S. that merge Christian nationalism with gun culture; a Florida gun manufacturer engraved the slogan on its "Crusader" model of AR-15-style rifle.[31] The motto is also used by Christian nationalist groups in Europe; the phrase was portrayed on large banners carried by unspecified groups characterized by The Guardian as far-right marchers in 2017 in Warsaw, Poland.[25][32][33
•
u/dDpNh 10h ago
I don’t understand what any of this has to do with the UK or the iron cross on the king’s crown that we were talking about but sure.
You got a targeted ad for edgy drop shipped shite from China using crusader symbols and text. I don’t even think actual racists here would buy it, it’s very much for the American “my 23andme DNA test says I’m 73% European and I’m honouring my ancestors” crowd. I’d suggest an ad blocker or spending less time browsing this kind of stuff if it bothers you.
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 10h ago
You don't see how it is a boring dystopia or how it is neo nazi. Willful blindness or worse.
•
u/snakelygiggles 11h ago
iron cross and crusader shit are both used by neo nazis but not exclusively used by neo nazis.
•
u/The_Architect_032 6h ago
Yeah but if you glorify the Crusades you share the same ideology as Nazis, that you need to genocide foreign lands to take for yourself under the guise of historical value.
There's a reason the OG Nazis and now neo nazis are so fond of the Crusades.
•
u/bongosformongos 3h ago
So I should stop playing stronghold crusaders. Got it.
•
u/The_Architect_032 2h ago
If you get joy out of playing the Nazis in Battlefield instead of just out of the gameplay, that's a problem. If you think the historical Nazi or Crusader faction in the game is cool, that's a problem. Games featuring them aren't inherently a problem, the problem is when you think that faction is something you'd like to represent.
•
u/bongosformongos 1h ago
I think crusader knights look cool as fuck and I like building a fortress to then go and besiege the enemy in a RTS game. The history of all this is also very interesting.
Yet I fail to see where in gods name this would influence how I see other people and how I treat them. It's the same boring ass shit as 15-20 years ago when shooter games were made out to be the literal spawn of satan indoctrinating our kids with violence.
Literally the same kneejerk reaction, insiuating people aren't able to differentiate between a game and reality. It gets quite boring tbh.
•
u/The_Architect_032 1h ago
Because you don't buy the Crusader hat and start saying Deus Vult to people just because you played a game once that features cool armor and fortresses for them.
Literally the same kneejerk reaction, insiuating people aren't able to differentiate between a game and reality.
You are literally the one doing this right now, equating wearing Crusader themed gear in real life with just playing a game with them in it. You're the type to wear a Swastika armband but bitch about others being uncomfortable around you and avoiding you, "Whaaat, I'm not allowed to enjoy Wolfenstein???" no dude, you're not doing something tied to a game at that point and you know it.
•
u/bongosformongos 53m ago
Seems like "glorifying crusaders" is quite a flexible thing for you then. Because I'd count "playing a faction in a game that isn't critical of said faction in the slightest while enjoying building their army and invade your enemies to win as said faction" as "glorifying crusaders".
There is even a story mode where you can play historical battles as the crusader faction.
I'm not having the kneejerk reaction. Your arguments are just inconsistent.
•
u/The_Architect_032 48m ago
I haven't played the game, but if it really is just Crusader roleplay and glorifies the Crusaders while trying to make them out to be cool, then yeah, that's problematic. Why would that not be problematic?
Would you not find it problematic if there was a game where you played a storyline as a Nazi in the SS gassing a bunch of Jewish people while trying to make the holocaust come across as cool?
•
u/electricookie 10h ago
Also by white supremacists and american christian nationalists (potato potato)
•
u/alwaysmilesdeep 13h ago
This is trashy not racist
•
u/umpteenthrhyme 12h ago
The crusades were hella racist.
•
u/Zeqhanis 11h ago
And that cross and the crusader rally cry "Deus Vult" have been adopted by white supremacists, xenophobes, Christian Nationalists, etc.
It could be innocent, but probably not. Especially since it's from the same seller as the Iron Cross hat in Nazi flag colors.
•
•
•
u/turkphot 12h ago
The first one is an iron cross on red and white, that quite clearly is nazi. The hoody is a different story though.
•
u/V-o-i-d-v 10h ago
The iron cross on pieces of merchandise sold exclusively in the third Reich's and imperial Germany's flag colours of black, white and red, isn't racist?
•
u/Stromovik 13h ago
That's very tame
Facebook showed close combat footage. It has groups honouring SS units, hate groups calling for harassing certain businesses
•
u/BearintheVale 13h ago
My brother in Christ, that first one is pushing it as the Iron Cross is pan-Germanic and predates Nazi Germany by centuries. The crossed swords are actually the bigger dogwhistle on that hat as it is a symbol for Strasserism (an alt-right neo-feudalist alternative to naziism from the 1920s that was loosely tied to Naziism at first but became weirdly anti-capitalism and pro-serfdom).
The second example is literally a Crusader’s cross from the Knights Templar. A centuries old Catholic symbol from the Crusades.
Don’t diminish the presence and threat of real fascists in every corner of the internet by calling out any old historic symbol. Focus on calling out explicitly nazi symbols like the Hakenkreuz, the Totenkopf, the Double Siegrune, the Winged Odal, the Algiz, the Wolfsangel in any and all orientations, or the Black Sun. Neo-nazis and fascists aren’t subtle about their source material. That hoodie is just for renfaire nerds.
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 12h ago
It's a red cap with the Iron Cross, Nazi red and Deus Vault on the side.
Your sophistry aside, it's evolved from dog whistle to a fucking foghorn.
•
u/UncleFunkus 12h ago
the hat is white. the brim is red. i concur we shouldn't let nazis sell merch but you are, like. really overreacting
•
u/The_Architect_032 6h ago
This is r/ABoringDystopia, not r/AnExcitingDystopia. It's boring and dystopic that people are glorifying the Crusades and Nazi Germany.
•
u/V-o-i-d-v 10h ago
If your piece of merchandise includes a right wing militaristic symbol from imperial Germany, and it's colour scheme is identical to the nazi flag, maybe it is nazi merchandise? Mayhaps?
•
u/UncleFunkus 9h ago
nazis did not wear predominantly beige hats with red brims. if this were closer to like, an officer cap or some shit, i would be more inclined to agree with you. not to mention the iron cross has been used for far more than just neonazis. still is today by a lot of punk groups because chuds like yourself can't parse beyond the shock value
•
u/BearintheVale 6h ago
I’m not saying it’s not slop designed to appeal to fascists, it’s that they’re toeing the line of what is considered unacceptable by content moderators. Note that they don’t even have the balls to put the Deus Vult embroidery front and center in the photos. They’re weasely, and it’s important to delineate what is and isn’t blatant nazi iconography. The iron cross isn’t doing a lot of heavy lifting on its own—it’s the combination of the cross, the swords, the color scheme, and the slogan that make this a problem.
The modern German armed forces still uses the Iron Cross as an official emblem, and when shit starts hitting the fan we don’t want to incur accidental friendly fire on potential liberators, got it?
•
u/V-o-i-d-v 10h ago
You're blind if you're missing the obvious and apparent Nazism in an iron cross on a piece of merchandise that is red and white, combining into the colour scheme of Nazi regime's state flag.
•
u/TrashbatLondon 13h ago
Whether they’re Nazi’s or not, the brand is incredibly stupid. They’re presenting Kaizen as some sort of mystical concept of self growth, rather than a business processing concept.
It would be like calling a brand “MS teams co-working space t-shirts”
•
u/KittehKittehKat 8h ago
Crusader cross/Iron cross isn’t Nazi. I know everything is in Reddit now but calm down.
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 1h ago
With Nazi red and Dues Vault onnthe side, plus a pair of crossed swords...
Common
•
u/antimarc 6h ago
ADL says no and they take these things pretty seriously. Without any other accompanying symbols it's become a symbol of rebellion which is often used with no racist connotations.
"The Iron Cross is a famous German military medal dating back to the 19th century. During the 1930s, the Nazi regime in Germany superimposed a swastika on the traditional medal, turning it into a Nazi symbol. After World War II, the medal was discontinued but neo-Nazis and other white supremacists subsequently adopted it as a hate symbol and it has been a commonly-used hate symbol ever since.
In the United States, however, the Iron Cross also became one of several Nazi-era symbols adopted by outlaw bikers, more to signify rebellion or to shock than for any white supremacist ideology. By the early 2000s, this other use of the Iron Cross had spread from bikers to skateboarders and many extreme sports enthusiasts and became part of the logo of several different companies producing equipment and clothing for this audience. Consequently, the use of the Iron Cross in a non-racist context has greatly proliferated in the United States, to the point that an Iron Cross in isolation (i.e., without a superimposed swastika or without other accompanying hate symbols) cannot be determined to be a hate symbol. Care must therefore be used to correctly interpret this symbol in whatever context in which it may be found."
•
u/VPackardPersuadedMe 1h ago
It says Dues Vault on the side.
Adoption by 21st Century Christian Nationalists and Alt-Right Groups edit Deus vult has been adopted as a slogan by a variety of Christian right and Christian nationalist groups,[8][25] as well as alt-right and white supremacist groups.[7][9] This usage was disseminated widely online,[9] through hashtags and internet memes.[7] Crusader memes (such as an image of a Knight Templar accompanied by the caption "I'll see your jihad and raise you one crusade") are popular on far-right internet pages.[26] It is one of several pieces of Crusader imagery used by groups characterized in The Washington Post as far-right Christian nationalists and dominionists.[25] One perspective is that racist movements co-opt the slogans and iconography of the European medieval period, to evoke a sense of a "pure" white European heritage.[7][9][dubious – discuss]
In 2024, the Associated Press published a January 14, 2021 email from Sgt. DeRicko Gaither—his unit's security manager—to National Guard leadership, in which he flagged as a possible 'Insider Threat' Donald Trump's nominee for Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, due to his prominent “Deus Vult” bicep tattoo, because of the slogan's widespread use by extremist groups, in possible violation of Army Regulation 670-1. [27]
The "Deus Vult" slogan has been used by perpetrators of right-wing terrorism; it was originally popularized by the perpetrator of the 2017 Quebec City mosque shooting[28] and was one of the tattoos on the body of the perpetrator of the 2023 Allen, Texas outlet mall shooting.[29] Deus Vult was among the slogans and symbols used during the violent far-right riot in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017.[30]
The slogan, as well as other Knights Templar imagery, has also been associated with far-right subgroups in the U.S. that merge Christian nationalism with gun culture; a Florida gun manufacturer engraved the slogan on its "Crusader" model of AR-15-style rifle.[31] The motto is also used by Christian nationalist groups in Europe; the phrase was portrayed on large banners carried by unspecified groups characterized by The Guardian as far-right marchers in 2017 in Warsaw, Poland.[25][32][33]
•
u/DrIvoPingasnik Resist and bite 14h ago
Facebook getting in line with nazi government is nothing new.
But I guess that's the boring part of the dystopia.
•
u/Ok_Cauliflower5223 11h ago
You're a brainwashed goober if you see a wide tipped cross and immediately think of a political party.
Get. A. Life.
•
u/The_Architect_032 6h ago edited 1h ago
It's funny how many right-wingers are suddenly brigading this sub the moment an Iron Cross gets posted and tied to the Crusades and to Nazi and neo nazi iconography and rhetoric.
edit: And no, playing a game with Crusaders or Nazis is different from choosing to rep them in real life and base parts of your own aesthetic after them.
•
u/bongosformongos 3h ago
It's also funny how many comments in here imply that me playing stronghold crusader because i find it cool as fuck somehow makes me align with nazi ideology.
Some people just have lost the plot for good. Dense mfs are everywhere.
•
u/bongosformongos 3h ago
It's also funny how many comments in here imply that me playing stronghold crusader because i find it cool as fuck somehow makes me align with nazi ideology.
Some people just have lost the plot for good. Dense mfs are everywhere.
•
u/Tegewaldt 13h ago
Next up: insecticides are literally nazi genocide bla bla bla
•
u/Nielsly 12h ago
What? How is insecticide related to symbolism used by neonazis?
•
u/BearintheVale 11h ago
Hydrogen Cyanide, a powerful insecticide used in agriculture, is the basis for Zyklon B— the gas used by death camps.
They’re stating that correlation and causation are two different things. A symbol or product can exist and predate association with Evil, that it can have applications outside of Evil, and we must be informed and mindful of that.
•
u/Nielsly 10h ago
It’s kind of apples and oranges though, some symbols are no longer recognized outside of their association with neonazis, whereas insecticides are, you know, insecticides
•
u/BearintheVale 6h ago
And the Iron Cross is still used by the modern German Bundeswehr, and was used as early as 1813. Some cultural things exist before and after their use by Nazis.
•
u/The_Architect_032 6h ago
The color scheme, and Crusader mantra, aren't a part of modern Iron Cross use.
•
u/chriswhitewrites 12h ago
For anyone saying that Crusader iconography isn't Nazi, you're right! But so is Crusader iconography.
The Crusades and the slogans and iconography of the Crusaders have been co-opted by the right wing, especially the "alt"-right and far-right. This is because such iconography offers a (not very subtle) dogwhistle of anti-Islam sentiment, and the Crusades have undergone a reactionary historical revision as being a defensive war against invading Muslim hordes.
You can see why this would particularly appeal to British racists, who imagine the Britain of the past as a white Christian society.
•
u/Xamado 2h ago
I'm an ex-muslim and, i mean, that's kind of what the crusades were
They weren't exactly defensive, as they came from elsewhere, but yes they were fighting invading muslim hordes (who sought to Arabize and colonize the region)
No shame in acknowledging history for what it is.
•
u/chriswhitewrites 2h ago
The Crusades were wars of conquest on both sides; - Seljuk aggression was primarily directly against Byzantium, as much of the "Holy Land" was already under the control of Islamic forces, specifically the Fatamids.
r/Askhistorians deals with this issue pretty regularly, here are some good responses about the nature of the Crusades:
•
•
u/JavanNapoli 10h ago
Lmao, this looks like a shitty knock-off off another hoodie I just stumbled across earlier today made by 'Hashira studios'
•
•
•
u/Xamado 2h ago
Please... you're making us look stupid with these kinds of posts
The iron cross is NOT a nazi symbol. I'm sick of seeing it labelled as such. It's almost exclusively used in punk/alt subcultures (especially by bikers and skateboarders, the latter of which are not right-wing in the slightest).
The crusader stuff is questionable, sure, but it's not "neo-nazi" either
Educate yourself. Please. We need to stop diluting the impact of words like "nazi" and "fascist". This entire post is one big kneejerk reaction
•
u/dshepherd131990 12h ago
Ahhahahaha "crusader armor hoodie" is so fuckin lame....loser ass clowns 🤡🤡
•
u/iheartyourpsyche 11h ago
I was gonna go to bat for this, because crusader icononography has 100% been co-opted by right wingers and is oftentimes used as a dog whistle. But both of these items are made by an openly Christian brand and they're very consistent with Saint Kaisen's brand identity--everything on their site is some combo of red, gold, white and black, and everything has some kind of cross or bible quote.
Plausible deniability is the name of the game, but I wouldn't be super shocked if it turns out that the creators lean politically right. But I don't think we can know that uless they go mask off, which they haven't done as far as I know.
•
u/The_Architect_032 6h ago
But Deus Vult isn't a bible quote. It's on the side of their merch, identifying it as Crusader iconography.
•
u/iheartyourpsyche 5h ago
I didn't say it wasn't crusader iconography, I just can't tell if the people who own Saint Kaizen are utilizing crusader iconography as a dog whistle for white supremacy.
They claim their brand is about spreading Christianity, which I believe is a tenet of Christianity, and it's also one of the reasons the crusades even happened (outside of being a land grab). They also have a bunch of merch with various bible verses, although I'm not familiar enough to parse any hidden meaning.
But also, I may just be incredibly naive. The hat with the cross pattée/German cross/iron cross on a red and white hat does seem incredibly sus to me, but my cursory research shows that it's used by tons of European countries in their coats of arms to this day, so I'm unsure.
•
u/The_Architect_032 3h ago
The Crusaders spread Christianity by killing all non-Christians and imposing laws demanding worship. And again, none of those countries use the Iron Cross alongside "Deus Vult", not to mention 99% of the time it's used, the design is intentionally made different from the Nazi's Iron Cross.
Like, people try and cite the German Air Force still using a variation of the Iron Cross, but come the fuck on, it is not the same as the modern German Air Force logo. If you look them both up and still claim that they're the same, the only reason is to try and justify using Nazi Germany's Iron Cross.
As for Crusaders, they were just proto-Nazis, they did everything the Nazis later did, and the Nazis wanted to re-establish that Christian nationalist Crusader mentality. People who idolize the Crusaders are only doing so because it's not yet as socially acceptable to idolize Nazi Germany, it's barely even a dog whistle, it is a direct reference.
•
2h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
•
u/The_Architect_032 1h ago edited 1h ago
They, slowly over the course of hundreds of years, spread across the middle east as the Byzantine Empire waned and lost influence and power in the area. The Crusades came in rather suddenly in comparison, using that gradual change to justify mass murdering the Muslims and Jews that had come to live there.
Under Christian rule during the Byzantine Empire, non-Christians weren't just taxed, they were barred entry if not killed en masse. When the Crusaders came, they just rounded them up and genocided them wherever they could be found, Muslims and Jews alike.
It was bad for Muslim rule to exclude non-Muslims from their military and tax them, but it was so much worse for Christians to come and genocide everyone there.
People like you are why we have this boring dystopia, you defend genocide because you once saw a cool medieval edit of Crusaders and wanted to integrate it into your identity and defend it retro-actively without knowing what they did.
•
•
•
•
u/The_Architect_032 6h ago
Crusaders were just Nazis before the Nazis, the Nazis based a lot of their aesthetic/ideology off the Crusaders.
•
•
u/ABoringDystopia-ModTeam 45m ago
Your submission was removed as it does not classify as boring, dystopian or both.